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Chainmail: Let’s talk about that trade deadline

The Kings made some minor moves at the trade deadline, let's chat about it!

Welcome back to Chainmail!

It has certainly been a week here in the insanity that is our Kings fandom.

Now get to asking, so we can get to answering!

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Timmy_13
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March 26, 2021 11:13 am

Honestly thought that Mcnair was hopefully something new. But I should’ve expected that whoever Vivek hires will always have his ear. I was too naive to think that Mcnair and Vivek were on different paths, and that Monte would do the smart thing and sell high. I was wrong once again.

The wheels on the bus…

andy_sims
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March 26, 2021 11:19 am
Reply to  Timmy_13

Hi Timmy,

Would you mind providing links to the details of the equitable trade offers involving either Barnes, Hield, or Holmes, that were presented to McNair, and which he presumably walked away from?

I would like to see them, so that I can make sure that my level of anger is appropriate, and not completely misplaced. Thanks, buddy!

WizsSox
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March 26, 2021 11:24 am
Reply to  andy_sims

I appreciate your dedication to these 😉 Bc I agree.

Last edited 1 year ago by WizsSox
TheOldFalcon
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March 26, 2021 11:46 am
Reply to  andy_sims

Exactly. I will pass judgement on the moves that were made, not the ones I wanted made but may not have been materialized possibilities. Of the moves made, I don’t see any clear stinkers. We didn’t get “had,” and, for us, that’s probably a win in and of itself. If the choice is make a bad move or make none at all, I’ll take the latter.

Did we add talent? Well, Wright is clearly an upgrade over Joseph, so yes. Will it be enough to move the needle in any meaningful way? Probably not, but we’ll see I guess.

Did I want the team to fully commit to the tank because I blindly see the top of every draft class containing our franchise savior? Absolutely. It’s fun to theorize about potential, because “you never know, this guy could be an all-timer!” (No Doncic comments here please.)

Regardless, will I root for this team to win now (rather than tank) since I now know that that is what they’re shooting for? Yes. The schedule is easier now, and with Fox and Tyrese playing like they are, who knows, maybe we’ll have something to actually, realistically hope for.

Last edited 1 year ago by Johnathan Herold
Timmy_13
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March 26, 2021 11:56 am
Reply to  andy_sims

You don’t think there was a market for at least 2 out of the 3? Let me get my man Woj and my backup dealer Shams so I can get the full details and behind the scenes stuff that no one can.

The problem with this trade deadline is not what we sent and we got in return in a vacuum. It’s the signaling of the path we are taking. We don’t have the talent to compete in this league and I’m in the opinion that we should get as much draft capital as we can since no other major superstar will sign here.

All we did was reshuffle the deck chairs and add €œfake win potential.€ For me, if we’re pining for the playoffs, I’d rather not be that team that comes in and have a ceiling of a 2nd rd. exit. 15 years now, what’s a couple years more of drafting high level talent?

ForKingsandCountry
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March 26, 2021 12:04 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

The ceiling of a second round exit would be a dream. Right now our ceiling is the play-in game. I would like it to be higher but at the moment that seems like the goal.

Timmy_13
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March 26, 2021 12:06 pm

For this season? Absolutely. But overall with Fox as the guy? That’s what it looks to be.

ForKingsandCountry
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March 26, 2021 12:10 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

Yeah you could be right. I do think with even semi-competent (Ha!) leadership this team will probably make the playoffs with Fox and Haliburton in the next few years.

Timmy_13
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March 26, 2021 12:27 pm

What Orlando did was what I wished the Kings did. €œWe’re bad anyway, might as well be bad for a couple years and go for Cade.€

RobHessing
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March 26, 2021 12:37 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

Would you have traded Fox? I mean, he’s basically the Kings’ Vuc. Tough call.

Timmy_13
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March 26, 2021 12:44 pm
Reply to  RobHessing

You’re right, hard to say. But knowing the talent in the next 2-3 year draft, a good offer would’ve probably enticed me. I think it would’ve taken more than Vuc’s haul. Because of talent + age + contract/control.

andy_sims
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March 26, 2021 1:05 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

A Fox in the hand is worth two in the draft.

ThisHotFireKevin
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March 26, 2021 1:31 pm
Reply to  andy_sims

sneaky little fox, i see what you did there.

rockbottom
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March 26, 2021 3:34 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

Draft talent is mostly speculation based on potential ! Jabari a great example with many other so- called sure things ! Fox and Hali are proven wins to date !

Mike120
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March 26, 2021 5:08 pm
Reply to  RobHessing

I wouldn’t trade Fox now for any other PG in the league. All the good ones are north of 30.

RobHessing
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March 26, 2021 5:21 pm
Reply to  Mike120

Well, if he can sustain what he has been doing lately, he’s in-his-prime Westbrook with less defense but better offensive efficiency. That will be the next step for him – playing at a high level consistently.

That said, there are a lot of good young PGs. Doncic, Simmons, Jamal Murray, Young, Morant, LaMelo looks a lot better than I thought he would. For Fox to join the ranks of Doncic, Simmons and Murray, consistent high level play will be a must.

I think that Haliburton helps him a lot with his style of play, and Haliburton’s new stepback three is an eye opener. They could become a dynamic backcourt for years to come.

I’m with you. He has a chance to be the best player that we have seen in Sac. in a long, long time. You’re not going to get better by trading him right now.

RORDOG
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March 26, 2021 6:00 pm
Reply to  RobHessing

I feel like Murray and Fox are actually in the same tier. They both give us glimpses of superstardom, but lack consistency. Mitchell probably fits in that group as well. Fox just hasn’t been paired with a Jokic/Gobert level big man.

WizsSox
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March 26, 2021 12:12 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

We all know only one team can win each year right? And probably 4-5 teams have real shots at winning in any given year? Has Portland had any real hopes besides 2nd round exit over the past ten years or so (Yes they made WCF once)? Not really, they are never mentioned as title contenders really.

But damn if they aren’t entertaining and consistently good. Could the Kings get to that level with some decent moves? I don’t see why not with the trajectory of this backcourt.

You get lucky draft wise or make some genius bold trade who knows what develops in terms of championship contender. But let’s get bounced in the first or second round multiple years before we start fixing the roster for that championship run. With a few exceptions almost all teams go through that process and then adjust their team accordingly.

We don’t know what deals were offered, but the Magic got Hampton, a 2025 protected first and no salary relief for the coming year for Gordon. If that was the offer for Barnes, I say no thanks too. That might make sense if you were totally stripping it down and getting the additional assets they got with the Vuc deal, but Kings weren’t getting those type of assets without offering Fox or Hali, which would make no sense right now.

It’s disappointing because we all geared up for yesterday and wanted to see something change, but that doesn’t mean the right moves weren’t made based on what was presented to the FO.

Last edited 1 year ago by WizsSox
Timmy_13
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March 26, 2021 12:39 pm
Reply to  WizsSox

They are definitely fun, no denying that as I turn the TV on for our backcourt. But the problem is we lack talent and all I’m saying is that I’d rather go all in with accumulating high level talent through draft picks and get an OKC level boom where we just go out and destroy teams.

I think playoff experience is valuable especially for our young guys but I don’t want us to be stuck in that 6th-11th team range of competitive but not enough.

WizsSox
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March 26, 2021 12:46 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

Fair enough. I’ve been all aboard the tank train for years…I mean Tankthon has popped up in my most frequented websites sadly. Feel though this year, without blowing it up totally and trading Fox/Hali (which I wouldn’t be willing to do) I think it would be hard to get inside that top 5. Probably not a ton of difference between 7-14 but none of us really know.

Early OKC hit Hall of Famers on 3 straight top 4 picks…it looked great obviously. I don’t think that is a repeatable very often though based on draft histories. But if you do nail it, it looks genius.

Probably just goes to one’s general level of risk taking.

Last edited 1 year ago by WizsSox
Timmy_13
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March 26, 2021 1:49 pm
Reply to  WizsSox

Lol tankathon has been my most frequented ever since it’s conception, right next to Bryant’s draft analysis (Really miss SPTSJUNKIE’s as well). But I think you catch my drift.

CoreyBrewersD
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March 26, 2021 2:38 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

OKC was a playoff team prior to reset. Meaning they had higher level assets that other teams were willing to trade higher level assets (good picks, good youth) for. Sacramento did not have any proven commodity to sell. I try to look at it that we aren’t any worse off. Like Bags and Holmes for Love, or some other Vlade albatross. Wait and see, it is your only choice anyway.

andy_sims
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March 26, 2021 1:04 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

So, you’re saying that there’s really nothing upon which you can legitimately lay your anger.

And of course there was a market for each of those players, in tandem or separately. That isn’t even remotely the same thing as saying that there were any actual opportunities to move them that would have returned a good or even fair result for the Kings.

I think that when the dust settles, the roster will be stronger 1-15 than before the deadline, but I can’t get myself to believe that any of the trades were done with the goal of reaching the playoffs this year. Over the remaining 20+ games, I don’t think the improvements will ultimately make the difference.

Frankly, I have no interest in staggering in at the ten-seed to the potential detriment of draft position. I’m all about the tank, but I also feel that what Fox & Haliburton are creating together right now might be worth the slippage.

As ever, I’m conflicted.

Timmy_13
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March 26, 2021 1:46 pm
Reply to  andy_sims

Yea I’m not upset or angry at all as I’ve become very apathetic about the state of Kangz basketball. I just have a different approach as to what I consider success.

And I’ve been very happy with the Monte hire and the Hali pick as he clearly is knowledgeable and talented. But I wish his ideology isn’t as aligned as Vivek’s win at all costs approach. And it was wishful thinking on my part that we are having a soft Hinkie rebuild.

andy_sims
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March 26, 2021 2:05 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

I don’t think any of us really knows what his ideology is, and I wouldn’t simply guess that his strategies are the same as Ranadive. I also don’t believe that McNair takes a job where he’s hamstrung by the owner, when he had other opportunities, including remaining in Houston.

When McNair was interviewed, he was also interviewing Ranadive. I can’t imagine that they don’t cover the specifics of McNair’s autonomy as the man in charge. General Manager of the Sacramento Kings isn’t the most plum gig out there, and no one would accept the job if it came with the kinds of theoretical controls that some have insisted are impacting McNair’s ability to do the job.

Of course, it would be best of ownership stayed out of management’s way, but at the very least, he shouldn’t be commenting about things that relate to the GM’s job duties, including trades, free agents, the draft, lineups, none of it.

Timmy_13
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March 26, 2021 2:27 pm
Reply to  andy_sims

I agree with that. Vivek should stay as far away as possible. But my argument is that he wouldn’t be hired if they weren’t of the same mindset at least on some cases (like building around Fox). I disagree with that approach.

I just really think that their view on things as it stands looks like win-now. For example, I loved the Whiteside deal not because I’m being a contrarian or anything. Rather because I think he has value and we can flip him at the deadline eventually, even for a 2nd rounder. And like you said, it could be a matter of no one wants _x_ player. But surely there should be a market for these types of players, especially for a positive impact big man and the mounting injuries as the season goes on. The €œcompeting for the playoffs€ PR this year isn’t really swaying my mind.

Also not saying that the Hinkie approach is the be-all end-all of all roster construction but rather that is one of the most effective ways to build a team.

andy_sims
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March 26, 2021 2:46 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

And like you said, it could be a matter of no one wants _x_ player. But surely there should be a market for these types of players,

I never said that no one wants these players. There was a lot of interest expressed, particularly regarding Barnes and Holmes. Plenty of people get excited when the new Ferarris hit the showroom, but most of us aren’t willing to meet the asking price. Yelling at the salesperson because he won’t take your Hyundai and ten grand cash in exchange is a misinterpretation of the commodity’s value.

I also don’t think that it’s crazy or bad if McNair and Ranadive are on the same page in attempting to build around Fox, even if their plans for doing so are very different. It’s certainly possible that there are other, better plans, but like-mindedness about this shouldn’t be an indictment of McNair.

Broken clocks, and all of that.

Kingsguru21
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March 26, 2021 4:42 pm
Reply to  andy_sims

Ferrari’s are boring.

Carl
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March 26, 2021 5:43 pm
Reply to  andy_sims

Plenty of people get excited when the new Ferarris hit the showroom, but most of us aren’t willing to meet the asking price. Yelling at the salesperson because he won’t take your Hyundai and ten grand cash in exchange is a misinterpretation of the commodity’s value.

I like this analogy, except that you’re the buyer, not the salesperson.

The Hyundai is broken and you need a new car, and after shopping around you stomp home complaining about not being able to get a Ferrari, so you’re just going to sit on your hands instead. And then when your partner and kids are pissed, your position is “Prove to me that someone offered me a Ferrari!”

The problem is that your broke ass Hyundai isn’t worth shit. So quit bitching about the Ferrari and trade the Hyundai for whatever you can, because no one is going anywhere in a broken car.

Last edited 1 year ago by Carl
andy_sims
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March 27, 2021 5:58 pm
Reply to  Carl

I’d say as far as Barnes/Hield/Holmes were concerned, and as I understand it, none of them being moved is the source of contention, Monte McNair was absolutely the salesman. I can’t seem to see it as you’ve suggested, that McNair was the buyer.

In order to have made drastic changes with the future in mind, it was always going to take at least one of our guys being moved.

kings4ever
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March 26, 2021 1:35 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

It is a myopic argument we don’t have talent when Marvin and CoJoSlo and Bjelica and their many flaws have been interfering with the talent that we do have along with a coach not maximizing the resources available to him.

Fox is emerging as unstoppable. He went from 20 PPG to 28 PPG in the last 25 games. The league has NO answer for him. He is discovering how easy it is for him to score and takeover games. His talent is emerging with Ty, another guy who can have his way to an All-Star level. Ty is way ahead of Fox as a rookie.

So the Kings record of 5 games under .500 does not account for the growth curve of these two players, a mistake the Doomers make in their doomer assessment.

And with our trades and Marvin sidelined, more talent in the form of Guy, Metu, Jefferies, Wright can step forward and add to the mix unabated by “fly in the ointment” type players.

If you fail to see this nuance or development, you are not a sophisticated or nuanced observer of the Kings. No offense, that is fine if you just want to analyze the team casually and arrive at ill-informed opinions, but don’t be surprised when your perceptions prove incorrect, as reflected in last nights 140 point trouncing on the second of a back-to-back with a second unit who had never seen time together.

It is only the jaded and cynical and Kings fans “traumatized” by the years of incompetence that fail to see these very positive encouraging developments.

Guess what my friends, basketball is a game and a diversion and there is nothing to be traumatized about!

It is a new day and a new dawn, we have a superstar and McGenius at the helm!

Now that does not mean we have all the talent we need. What we do need is WINGS. Maybe one will be Metu. Metu is more promising than Bagley. I do not think it is Woodward. I do not think it is Harkless. Maybe Silva can step up from the Heat trade? And maybe DaQuan Jefferies establishes himself more as a 3 and D guy….

This team needs 1-2 more quality wings with size and length and speed to complement Barnes. There is not enough depth or versatilty there and this hurts us on the boards, rotations and our passing game.

There is a 70-85% chance McGenius will get us a 6’7″ to 6’9″ skilled wing no matter where we are drafting.

Timmy_13
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March 26, 2021 2:00 pm
Reply to  kings4ever

A trouncing of a Dubs team missing their best defender and the best shooter ever? The team they fielded last night was like a middling G-league team. They still managed to score 119 lol.

I mean, I’m just being realistic. Obviously I want Fox to be a superstar and prove me wrong. I’m in that side. But he has to show me consistency for a full season for me to be wholly in superstar camp.

a lot of people have been confusing doomer theory with realism. And that’s fine because there’s really not much to say about a franchise that hasn’t seen the playoffs since the Bibby era.

ajon_es
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March 26, 2021 2:10 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

I’m feeling this hard core right now too. But its helpful to remember the new draft lottery odds. Minnesota, with the WORST overall record, has a 52% change of picking in the top 4. That is, they have a 48% chance of picking 5. With the WORST record…

While I completely agree that we should have gotten draft capital. The new lottery odds walk me off the edge a little bit. We are still going to be a lottery team with a 15-25% chance of top 4. Almost certainly CHI is going to finish with a better record than us with Vuc. AND we’re going to get Fox and Hali meaningful games down the stretch to try for the play-in. Slightly less depressed than yesterday when viewing it from that lens.

Last edited 1 year ago by ajon_es
RobHessing
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March 26, 2021 12:24 pm
Reply to  andy_sims

A look at the market and at what Orlando was fetching in trading Aaron Gordon and Evan Fournier might give us a glimpse of the market value of Barnes and Hield, though Fournier’s expiring is certainly more palatable than Hield’s longer deal. One could reasonably assume that Holmes’ small expiring contract and his current level of play would be attractive to teams.

We have seen what Orlando and OKC have done over the past few months, unloading players and contracts and amassing players and picks. It may not be the right way for the Kings, but if it was an option for those teams, one can again reasonably assume that it was an option for the Kings.

I think what removes that option is De’Aaron Fox. He begins his big contract next year, and I don’t think that the Kings can afford a Bradley Beal scenario with Fox, which is why McNair and Co. are trying to thread this narrower needle of re-tooling instead of blowing the whole thing up.

I write this as a person that is not terribly upset with the trade deadline inactivity. I think that Barnes is very malleable, and if the Kings add talent he can adjust to whatever his revised role would be. And he is the rare locker room voice that is important enough to the team to be listened to. Hield is frustrating to watch in Walton’s system, and I am a bit concerned about the Kings overpaying to retain Holmes. I would have traded Whiteside for a ham sandwich, but to your point, maybe a ham sandwich was never offered.

So my arse-pulled guess is that the Kings were offered some level of prospects and/or picks for Barnes and Holmes, and perhaps Hield came up in the conversations as well. And management determined that the compensation did not justify making the deals. The result of those decisions, like the decision to not match on Bogi or the decision to draft Haliburton, rests on their shoulders.

In other words, it really doesn’t matter what we do and don’t know about what the Kings were and were not offered at the trade deadline. All that matters is the results. It will be interesting to see how the Kings, Thunder and Magic all look in one, two, three, four and five years.

Timmy_13
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March 26, 2021 12:35 pm
Reply to  RobHessing

Just for me, and our opinions may differ with this, is that if we’re competing for playoffs in this day and age, it takes 2-3 superstars to win the chip. Deaaron is nice as is Hali. But it looking more like Blazers 2.0 where Dame is the lone superstar (I’m being extremely generous with Fox’s ceiling) with borderline-backup all stars CJ (Hali) and Nurk (no one).

Basically we need more talent. FWIW I’m not saying Monte can’t draft a good player with a lower draft pick rather I’d rather pick at the Top 5 knowing that Monte has shown he can pick the right player and a Top 5 gives him a higher chance. (SSSI approved)

jwalker1395
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March 26, 2021 12:48 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

The Trailblazers certainly are the likely blueprint to build a respectable team out of a smaller franchise like the Kings. Nice that we have the backcourt set, but I’m totally in agreement with you that we need more talent. Barnes, Holmes, and Hield are nice players, but they aren’t gonna take your team to the next level. Honestly, Barnes is the only one of those three that is a starter on a title contending team, and a 4th-5th option at that. And since players aren’t gonna sign with Sacramento, I am aligned with your thinking that the best way to get that talent is via the draft/player development. I think Fox and Hali need a go-to scorer to maximize their potential. With the offensive burden off of Fox’s shoulders, and another threat for both him and Hali to pass to, I can see the team becoming extremely dynamic and moving the ball well for open looks on offense. Then you need some defensive support. Put a high-volume scoring wing, a tough as nails 3 and D big man, and a versatile complementary forward (Barnes works) into the mix with these guys and I think you’re really getting somewhere. To my mind, that puts us exactly one All-Star wing and starting caliber big man away from being the 4-6 seed in the West year in, year out. I was hoping to get the wing in this draft and the big man via trade (Myles Turner </3), but…I guess we’ll just have to see!

WizsSox
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March 26, 2021 12:54 pm
Reply to  jwalker1395

So we are already almost capped out with Hali on a rookie contract, but we still need an All Star wing, a 3/D big man (Turner at 18 mill apparently) and keep Barnes around…just to get into the middle of the playoff race?

Assuming this All Star wing was drafted and on a rookie contract, as soon as he gets good and to that All Star level, Hali will be up for an extension. And then that wing up for an extension. And now DeAaron is exiting his extension and looking for even bigger extension because he made a couple All Star games. But we are still managing to keep our Barnes/Turner type role players at 15+ mill a piece?

There is a reason OKC did trade Harden…even if you do a great job at nailing your picks, it’s hard to keep a team like that together.

There are few examples of teams over the last 20 years that keep a core of 3-4 guys together and that is what sustains their long run of success. More often the teams that are consistently successful have 1-2 dudes and then the pieces change around them. Having a stable coach, GM and ownership obviously plays a factor in that. We can hope for 2 out of the 3.

Hope Vivek likes the luxury tax under this scenario.

Last edited 1 year ago by WizsSox
jwalker1395
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March 26, 2021 1:17 pm
Reply to  WizsSox

My plan gets us a solid 3-6 years of fun competitive basketball ala the Trailblazers or Jazz but it sounds like you’ve figured out how to get us all the way to the Finals so let’s hear it! 🙂

WizsSox
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March 26, 2021 1:23 pm
Reply to  jwalker1395

Huh…I repeated your plan back and played out likely scenario. I think your plan created a championship contender and you insinuated A LOT was needed to try and get into that 4-6 seed. An All Star scoring wing, 3/D big man ala Myles Turner and keep Barnes.

I think just getting another quality wing (not all star) and a couple decent bench pieces makes this a fun competitive team in the thick of playoff race

Last edited 1 year ago by WizsSox
Kayte_Hunter_Fan_club
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March 26, 2021 12:38 pm
Reply to  RobHessing
  • Hield is frustrating to watch in Walton’s system.

You blame Walton for Hields issues. Are you going to blame Walton for global warming next. Not to say Walton is Popavich but that’s a ridiculous assertion.

The real issue with the trade deadline is not the moves the Kings didn’t make but the conflicting nature of the moves they did make.

Timmy_13
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March 26, 2021 12:41 pm

I’m of the idea in that not one person is to blame but the org as a whole.

ForKingsandCountry
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March 26, 2021 12:48 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

That seems like a reasonable assessment. I don’t think Walton has helped but Buddy himself surely shoulders some of the blame as well. And why is Walton the coach? Terrible front office decision making. Plenty of blame to go around.

Kayte_Hunter_Fan_club
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March 26, 2021 12:53 pm

Plenty of blame to go around, no debate about that. Do you want to elaborate how Walton’s system is Buddy’s problem. That guy doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about.

kings4ever
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March 26, 2021 1:08 pm

The system has nothing to do with it. Buddy shooting splits for March (45% FGs 42% from 3s) are aligned to his career average. Did Walton change the system in March?

Buddy is playing a little too heavy, muscle and body fat, though I think he may be leaning out a little. He looks more fit than he did 4-6 weeks ago.

Look back in 2018-19, his best season, he was moving better then, getting to his spots quicker and changing ends better.

He cannot afford to be suboptimal in terms of his fitness when he was already operating at an athletic disadvantage against most opponents.

I don’t know if playing SF is the solution, but I dont think it has hurt him. And playing with Guy and Wright if this coach enables that will further enable him to get clean looks.

Between Guy, Wright, Fox and Ty, Buddy should be feasting on open threes and has NO reason to try to get overly creative trying to create on his own.

andy_sims
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March 26, 2021 1:13 pm
Reply to  kings4ever

I think that Buddy has a bit too much muscle for his own good, but questioning his fitness is ridiculous. He practices and works out as hard as anyone out there.

Timmy_13
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March 26, 2021 1:51 pm
Reply to  andy_sims

I think being open on every transition play tremendously upped his play. (Joerger years).

kings4ever
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March 26, 2021 1:52 pm
Reply to  andy_sims

If you look at his physique from 2-3 years ago, he had more muscle definition. But he has not lost muscle I do no believe, so the reason he is less defined (sculpted) is because of extra body fat. That is fitness in my book.

Sure Buddy works hard. That does not mean he is not also having an extra slice of desert.

He looks good physically and he is putting together his best month in March. He is still not moving like he was though. I would like to see him drop another 10 pounds even if he does stay at the 3. He needs all the quickness he can muster.

JoeEnzyme
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March 27, 2021 11:56 am
Reply to  andy_sims

I have speculated before that Buddy may have been impacted more than people realize from COVID. A 5% decrease in respiratory capacity may not land an elite athlete on home oxygen but may be the difference between good and mediocre, in his case. Hopefully I’m wrong, but we are seeing long COVID effects in more younger people than we would wish.

Kayte_Hunter_Fan_club
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March 26, 2021 3:49 pm
Reply to  kings4ever

Are you going to give Walton credit for Fox’s performance and Holmes’ improvement?

Timmy_13
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March 26, 2021 1:50 pm

100% agree. Walton being there isn’t helping as almost everyone had a record year with Joerger.

HoustonJP
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March 26, 2021 2:22 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

Perhaps the quid pro quo Monte extracted from Viveck in return for making a run at the playoffs was the replacement of Walton this offseason, even if the team rallies to .500 by seasons end. Perhaps. No evidence of that to present, just a thought as to why what appears to be a shift from what we have read was the blueprint to acquire talent via the draft.

Kayte_Hunter_Fan_club
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March 26, 2021 12:51 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

I think that’s correct.

RobHessing
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March 26, 2021 12:41 pm

Hield was a lot better and fun to watch when he was playing for Joerger.

Walton probably does contribute to global warming due to his inability to keep his mask over his face, but that is really not germane to the conversation.

You seem fun.

FoxForceFive
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March 26, 2021 12:45 pm
Reply to  RobHessing

Absolutely agree on Joerger Buddy vs. Walton Buddy. When Hield runs to the corner on fastbreaks and runs for spots ups in the halfcourt, it’s a beautiful thing. When he tries to create, a turnover is inevitable. Most recent example: last night, when he threw the ball behind his man, and out of bounds.

Kayte_Hunter_Fan_club
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March 26, 2021 12:55 pm
Reply to  FoxForceFive

The comments are getting even more ridiculous now. Buddy threw the ball behind his man, Walton’s fault? Are you kidding me.

FoxForceFive
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March 26, 2021 1:03 pm

Buddy being put into a position to create offense off the dribble, because Walton does not run a system utilizing his strengths is the point.

Timmy_13
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March 26, 2021 1:54 pm

I think what people are trying to say is that Buddy definitely has bone headed plays but the way Walton is using him is head scratching especially trying to make him a playmaker when he is best used as a Klay type player.

The way he was used under Joerger is the best example of this difference.

HoustonJP
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March 26, 2021 2:31 pm
Reply to  RobHessing

I had Tacos El Carbon last night watching the game, heavy on the black frijoles. Walton should not be blamed for my gas today. I am the culprit via a vis global warming. Upon these broad shoulders….you did make me laugh Rob.

I agree that Joeger’s run, run, run system played to Buddy’s strength’s, I think he was the most exciting player to watch that year, a perpetual motion machine. I don’t pound the table for Walton to be replaced, however, I respect the opinions of those who do, but I do think it is time to see what a top flight young talented coach could do with this team, someone that Monte hired, as opposed to the previous GM.

Kayte_Hunter_Fan_club
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March 26, 2021 3:39 pm
Reply to  RobHessing

I am. I had a lot of fun as a Lady Brave playing with Kayte and subsequently a lot of fun playing for UC Davis and your comments about Kayte I find distasteful and I doubt you’ve ever dribbled a basketball. So keep at little man you seem to a small following of sheep.

Want-to-be-gm
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March 26, 2021 4:41 pm

You have to remember little man Bo Peep has his sheep and he plays to them and his childish comments about Kayte Hunter are his way of playing to the sheep. He’s never played, coached or accomplished anything in basketball.

Want-to-be-gm
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March 26, 2021 12:48 pm

100% agree with you. Don’t worry he’ll get a bunch of thumbs up for that comment about Buddy in Walton’s system as ill informed as it is. He doesn’t know the difference between a flex pick and a flex capacitor.

RORDOG
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March 26, 2021 12:56 pm
Reply to  Want-to-be-gm

comment image

eddie41
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March 26, 2021 1:08 pm
Reply to  Want-to-be-gm

1.21 gigawatts!!

RobHessing
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March 26, 2021 1:20 pm
Reply to  Want-to-be-gm

comment image

andy_sims
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March 26, 2021 1:11 pm

So, we can infer nothing from the fact that Hield was making a case for all-star inclusion under Joerger, but has become an erratic turnover machine under Walton?

Shooters do not just forget how to shoot.

Carl
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March 26, 2021 5:54 pm
Reply to  andy_sims

Exactly, and obviously. It’s absurd to argue Walton has nothing to do with Hield’s issues.

Roaddog
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March 27, 2021 3:02 am
Reply to  andy_sims

sometimes..

53de01_08113a9737654b6e99bd17b54468959a_mv2.gif
andy_sims
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March 26, 2021 1:09 pm
Reply to  RobHessing

Ultimately it is about results, but results don’t always accurately portray the work and effort that went into the attempt.

There just seems to be a lot of equating desired goals with actual results, and it’s hardly uncommon for them to be wildly divergent.

RobHessing
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March 26, 2021 1:17 pm
Reply to  andy_sims

Ultimately it is about results, but results don’t always accurately portray the work and effort that went into the attempt.

I don’t know that it matters when we are talking about the NBA and its decision makers. Their environment is pretty much 100% results driven.

Some folks began questioning Vlade sooner than later. While they were going largely off of gut or feeling, turns out they were right. After 14 consecutive years of shitnanigans and the worst on-court run of any Sacramento Kings ownership, I sure understand why some fans might be reticent to give this organization credit for its non-moves.

andy_sims
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March 26, 2021 2:14 pm
Reply to  RobHessing

Ultimately the results are all that matter, but the implication that McNair botched trade opportunities lack all substance. If, for example, Ainge offered Langford and a middling pick for Barnes, then I guess Barnes is going to remain.

As has been said my persons far more elegant than myself, you can’t put ten pounds of shit into a five-pound bag. All Ainge did yesterday was get himself a couple more five-pound bags. I’m sure McNair would have liked to accomplish more, but in this case, nothing beats the hell out of Boston’s something.

RobHessing
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March 26, 2021 2:34 pm
Reply to  andy_sims

Using that logic – and it is quite logical – we can no longer have conversations that put forth opinion about anything until after the results are in. That is, we can now have conversations about the Divac era, but to have that conversation in real time was capricious, as we did not have the final result while the conversation was going on. We cannot, for example, have an opinion about whether or not the Kings will make the playoffs this year. All we can do is have a factual conversation that they did not make the playoffs last year.

I posit that the opinion that McNair botched trade opportunities lack exactly as much substance as the opinion that he did not botch trade opportunities. And the fact that none of us were behind those closed doors cuts both ways, does it not?

andy_sims
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March 26, 2021 3:20 pm
Reply to  RobHessing

Opinions about the results, and implying incompetence or stupidity as the reason for those results are very different things. The latter is pervasive here.

I’m not so much asserting that McNair didn’t necessarily botch a trade deal, as I am putting things that we do know onto the scale.

The market for Barnes appeared to have been cooling, with talk of Ainge not offering much, and being disinclined to bend. There was an article saying that McNair had asked about Marcus Smart, which seems to me to be fair, and also shrewd. Opinions vary about Smart, but it seems as though most people agree that he’s a good presence to have around. There was some mostly vague talk about Denver, but the discussed return for Sacramento didn’t seem to make it a compelling move.

The talk about Holmes had been primarily focused on Toronto and Charlotte. If it occurred to us that receiving Bridges from the Hornets would be solid return, then I think we have to concede that it also occurred to McNair. (Feel free to make arguments that this couldn’t possibly have happened. I love batting practice.) And speaking of Toronto, one of the best General Managers in sports failed in his attempt to trade away an expiring Kyle Lowry, with the likely result that they end up with empty hands. I’m too lazy to see what Raptors fans are saying. I mean, they’re Canadian, who cares? I’d not be surprised if some fans were blasting Ujiri for not making a trade, but it would not surprise me if that sentiment was much more muted than here. Admittedly, the Kings are a unique situation, but that doesn’t mean we get to throw logic out the window.

To my knowledge, no one was willing to give up much for Hield, but that hasn’t slowed down any of the outrage that revolves around him still playing in Sacramento. Would trading Hield have helped us re-sign Holmes? That would be my guess. Does that mean he should have been dealt for a couple of second-round picks? I think Orlando got ripped off in trading Fournier, but his contract expires this year, and not two years from now, so they were under the gun to get anything.

This constitutes a portion of my reasoning behind the assertion that McNair probably played things correctly. I’ve not heard a single thing to back up the claim the he completely fucked the dog on this, but I’m certainly willing to listen.

RobHessing
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March 26, 2021 3:28 pm
Reply to  andy_sims

This kind of makes my point while re-enforcing your earlier point:

The market for Barnes appeared to have been cooling, with talk of Ainge not offering much, and being disinclined to bend…

We don’t know, either way. And that’s fine. I respect your opinion and take. I also respect the take that McNair spit the bit. And as it pertains to each of these opinions, we weren’t in the room, so we just don’t know. All we have is our reasoning, gut, biases, etc. Vive(k) la difference!

andy_sims
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March 26, 2021 4:09 pm
Reply to  RobHessing

That last sentence should get you banned for reasons I’m unable to articulate.

And of course, we don’t know either way, but I’d still love a counterargument based on things that are known. I’m incredibly open-minded to evidence, and willing to listen to even hints of it.

Carl
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March 26, 2021 6:39 pm
Reply to  andy_sims

You’re misrepresenting the argument. I certainly don’t argue that McNair botched trade opportunities. How would I know? I argue that his job is to make meaningful improvements to the team and not only did he not accomplish that, he didn’t make any real movement in that direction.

I don’t expect it to happen overnight. And it’s certainly possible it could happen all at once, with the right trade. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect movement in the direction of improvement, and to question why when that doesn’t happen.

andy_sims
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March 27, 2021 6:12 pm
Reply to  Carl

I think it’s very important to ask questions, and I apply that to almost everything in life. I haven’t seen questions. I’ve seen statements again and again that because Barnes/Hield/Holmes all remain on the roster, that McNair must have fucked up.

I supplied the information that I had about all of those players, and shared it, even though we all had access to the same info. Based on the knowns, the logic sends me toward the opinion that McNair didn’t make a move with any or all of them, because fair return was never on the table. And while it is merely an opinion, I have supplied the reasoning used to build it, and still, no one has bothered to say that those factors are false.

I’m still waiting for someone to do the same work in order to help me understand that, no, McNair did have viable offers on the table for one or all, and because he’s stupid/incompetent/VD in disguise, he walked away.

I don’t mind the questions at all, but I will invariably ask for the reasons the questions are being asked. No one has bothered to supply any answers. All that has been offered are statements with nothing to back them. I just want so see the cards that are being used to hold them up, because all I see is statements floating in the air with no visible means of support.

Timmy_13
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March 26, 2021 4:10 pm
Reply to  andy_sims

I don’t think anyone is implying that Mcnair is stupid or incompetent, nor do I think that he shit the bed. I’m arguing that this shouldn’t be the proper way to go about things because I am afraid that the ceiling for this roster with Fox as the main guy is not championship.

This may be the thing where we’ll never agree on, Andy.

andy_sims
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March 27, 2021 6:14 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

I don’t think anyone is implying that Mcnair is stupid or incompetent, nor do I think that he shit the bed. I’m arguing that this shouldn’t be the proper way to go about things because I am afraid that the ceiling for this roster with Fox as the main guy is not championship.

I mean, those are two very different things.

Also, there have been no shortage of opinions that McNair is incompetent, and blew the trade deadline. They’re everywhere.

DutchKingsFanInUK
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March 26, 2021 1:50 pm
Reply to  RobHessing

Nuance?! How dare you!

(nice write-up)

Carl
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March 26, 2021 5:18 pm
Reply to  andy_sims

Would you mind providing links to evidence that it was impossible for McNair to meaningfully improve the team at the trade deadline this season?

I would like to see them, so that I can make sure that my level of anger is appropriate, and not completely misplaced. Thanks, buddy!

RORDOG
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March 26, 2021 6:04 pm
Reply to  Carl

The Kings added a player that has a higher VORP this season than Fox. I guess we can quibble on the definition of €œmeaningful,€ but Wright is absolutely capable of having a significant impact on winning. He’s also on a very affordable deal, so his WS/$ is Holmes-esque.

andy_sims
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March 27, 2021 6:17 pm
Reply to  Carl

I never said that it was impossible. The information that I shared about the possibilities surrounding the exits of Barnes/Holmes/Hield indicate that it was going to be a rough ride to obtain fair or usable value in return. That’s where my my opinions are rooted, in what’s known. Persons asserting the opposite have provided nothing other than tiny-fisted rage.

2021Champs
March 26, 2021 11:35 am
Reply to  Timmy_13

Well Buddy is overpaid. Barnes is overpaid. Holmes we need for that playoff push. I could see why other GMs don’t want Buddy or Barnes. For Holmes, His contract coupled with Buddy or Barnes in a trade would be a player making $27-$30 mil a year. No one is trading their star for Buddy or Barnes+ Holmes. Maybe if he included a 1st round pick but seems like he thinks he’ll pick another Haliburton with the 12th pick. lol
If Evan Fournier(basically the same player as buddy except a free agent after this year) got traded for 2, 2nd rounders, only way a buddy trade would happen is if they traded him with a 1st round pick.

CheekMagnet
March 26, 2021 1:09 pm
Reply to  Timmy_13

There will be another opportunity to trade players for draft picks right before the draft. Maybe we can have the best of both worlds? Make the play-ins. Presumably Buddy and Barnes would’ve raised their profiles a bit. Then trade our pick and players for a higher pick?

TheGrantNapear
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March 26, 2021 1:18 pm
Reply to  CheekMagnet

Lol That was a fun thread to read, had to get my popcorn for that one 😎🍿

Timmy_13
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March 26, 2021 2:07 pm
Reply to  TheGrantNapear

I love having differing opinions on comment threads. I learned a lot more on these threads than I did reading ESPN articles. The amount of knowledge Kings fans have is underrated.

Timmy_13
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March 26, 2021 2:06 pm
Reply to  CheekMagnet

I love the optimism and I hope we do. Though no one in their right mind will let go of a top 5 pick especially this year. It will take multiple firsts and a positive asset (Hali) for them to even consider it. We need these teams to hire Vlade for it to work.

RORDOG
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March 26, 2021 11:22 am

Let’s dream big folks, the Kings are only 3.5 games out of the 8th seed:

Sacramento is all-in on pushing for the 10th seed in the Western Conference.

itsjabby
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March 26, 2021 11:35 am
Reply to  RORDOG

I believe they will be aiming for that 8th seed. Play-in at minimum.

SelecaoKOJ
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March 26, 2021 11:51 am
Reply to  itsjabby

Kings don’t control their destiny. They have to hope teams like the Spurs, Dallas, and Portland fall apart. Which, I don’t see happening.

Catching Memphis or an injured Dubs are possible for a 9-10 seed. sure.

Kings schedule is not that easy, as falsely reported.

Utah Jazz 3x
Spurs 3x
Lakers 2x (If Davis or Lebron is back)
Memphis 3x
Dallas 3x
Dubs again
Suns
Bucks

All those teams are playoff teams currently.

WizsSox
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March 26, 2021 12:00 pm
Reply to  SelecaoKOJ

Well the Spurs have lost 4 in a row and have the second hardest schedule remaining, so if you are going to use that as your justification for the Kings doing poorly down the stretch then same should apply to Spurs but even more so.

Kings remaining schedule is in the middle. Kings will probably Kangz, but there is reason to think the Spurs could flounder here.

Last edited 1 year ago by WizsSox
ForKingsandCountry
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March 26, 2021 12:06 pm
Reply to  WizsSox

Yeah I think the Spurs are very likely to drop out while the Pelicans are probably more likely to jump up if they can ever get it together. Both the Spurs and Grizzlies are playing a ton of games in the second half of the season because of Covid protocols.

andy_sims
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March 26, 2021 11:46 am
Reply to  RORDOG

I still don’t think any of what happened yesterday was done with the expectation of increasing the odds of making the play-in. It may happen, but it also may have happened without the moves.

RORDOG
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March 26, 2021 12:38 pm
Reply to  andy_sims

If Wright plays well, then that would help. I don’t think everyone has fully conceptualized how much of an upgrade Wright is over Joseph yet. Most of the catch all stats have Wright in the top ~75 in terms of impact this season. His role and MPG will be different now, but he’s replacing one of the worst rotation players in the NBA this season. That type of swap can help a team win an extra game or two down the stretch.

But I agree, the Kings didn’t make that move based solely on his contribution this season. I think it will be fun to see how they look next season when they can always have multiple playmakers on the floor.

ForKingsandCountry
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