The Kings are rolling into the 2021-22 season with what appears to be an unfinished roster. We’ve heard various reports and rumors throughout the offseason that Marvin Bagley and Buddy Hield were on the trade block, but both mercurial players are still in Sacramento, and Monte McNair has actually added talent at both of their positions. Minutes are going to get tight somewhere.
Luke Walton has some difficult decisions to make here. At guard alone, the Kings have De’Aaron Fox, Buddy Hield, Tyrese Haliburton, Davion Mitchell, Terence Davis, and Jahmi’us Ramsey to consider. Ramsey is the easiest man out at this stage, but Fox, Haliburton, Hield, and Mitchell can all make a case for what will likely come down to two starting positions.
De’Aaron Fox is an obvious lock as one of the starting guards. From there it gets pretty tricky. We know Hield wants to start, and Walton has been reluctant to bench him in the past, but Haliburton earned that role with his strong play last season, and it’s hard to justify keeping a developing young potential star on the bench. Davion Mitchell will likely be the best defender of the bunch, and that alone requires at least some starting consideration.
The Kings have talked about playing small with three guard lineups. They did it for stretches last season, but never really explored the idea of starting three guards for an extended stretch in 2019-20. I’d be pleasantly surprised if this is the direction Luke Walton goes in to start the year because it’s interesting, different, and gives the benefit of the doubt to the young players on this roster, but I don’t think we’re going to see it. At least not yet.
If Walton’s last two years in Sacramento are any indication, he may feel like the Kings don’t have the personnel necessary to make a starting three guard lineup feasible defensively. Especially when said lineup likely wouldn’t even include their best perimeter defender in Davion Mitchell because that would mean one of Hield or Haliburton is on the bench, and I’m not sure if that’s the right call, either. The puzzle pieces just don’t fit together nicely.
Hypothetically, if the Kings did start three guards, that would leave them with a pretty undersized starting unit. You can start Harrison Barnes at the 4 pretty easily, and Richaun Holmes is obviously the starting 5 here, but together that frontcourt could really struggle to hold down the paint, especially if Walton is putting three guards out there with them.
If they had a bigger center like Rudy Gobert or Nikola Jokic, great. But when you’re pairing a smaller 6-10 center that is an average rebounder with a 6-8 forward that isn’t a great rebounder, it’s easy to see where the Kings could run into trouble managing size in the paint.
The most likely scenario in my eyes is the return of Marvin Bagley to the starting lineup on a pretty short leash, but starting Barnes in his tradition three spot puts a sizable dent in the amount of available minutes for three guard lineups that would keep the crowded Kings backcourt happy. I haven’t even mentioned veteran wing Moe Harkless yet. He could also factor in as Barnes’ primary backup on the wing, and make the minutes crunch at guard that much tougher.
We can bat around rotation ideas in the comments, but I don’t believe there is a comfortable way to optimize everyone on this roster as it’s currently constructed.
It’s important to note here that this isn’t just blogger speculation. This isn’t Monte McNair’s ideal roster, either. How do we know this? Because in McNair’s perfect world Buddy Hield would’ve been on the Lakers right now, Kyle Kuzma would’ve been your starting power forward next to Richaun Holmes, Montrezl Harrell would’ve been the backup center, Alex Len would’ve likely never been signed, and maybe that bizarre Delon Wright trade doesn’t happen. Ok, that last one might just be wishful thinking.
We know that Monte McNair has been trying to rebalance the roster to alleviate these concerns, he just hasn’t been able to do it yet. And if the Kings head into the season with the same roster they have right now, it’s going to be Luke Walton’s problem to solve.
One option to consider: an expanded 9-10 player rotation with a starting five of Hali, Fox, Barnes, Bagley, and Holmes. The “bench mob” is Davion, Buddy, and Len with some combination of Harkless, Thompson, Barnes (both units sometimes), King, TD, and Ramsey, depending on who is hot. Hield has the opportunity to become our microwave, lighting it up from the bench. The bench mob could come in early, depending on how the starters are doing.
No more Bagley in the starting lineup, please.….JUST no……….
I think we have seen enough Bagley in the starting lineup, and the result is just bad, real bad.
PG: Fox, Mitchell
SG: Hali, Hield, TD
SF: Barnes, Harkless/TD
PF: Metu, Bagley
C: Holmes, Len
You have an asset whose value is indeterminate, and must be properly evaluated as the season progresses, in order to make the right decision approaching the trade deadline or 2022 offseason. The Kings don’t have the luxury of running out the string, letting Bagley walk, then facing the possibility of finding out that he’s actually a pretty good player while playing for another team.
Bagley needs to get twenty-five minutes per game, at minimum. He’ll either begin living up to his potential, or he’ll play himself out of town. This team doesn’t get to just guess about what may or may not happen, and hope for the best. If Bagley is healthy, his play will determine his fate with the Kings. Petty opinions about non-basketball issues won’t be a factor.
They are under stress to avoid breaking the all-time playoff futility record.
I think the priority is to avoid breaking that record, rather than seeing what they can coax out of Bagley.
If they don’t realize they have a near zero chance to make the playoffs in the West with this current roster, then their priorities are all out of line.
I can guarantee you they don’t realize that.
Well they are a middle of the road team that can go either way: collect more assets or compete for a playoff. They won’t know that until they actually play.
There are some foundations from last season that they are operating on.
They somewhat address the bad defense without affecting the good offense. They also have pretty clean cap and all of their picks.
They will have to see how this team plays and then make decision where to go.
Middle of the road teams would make the playoffs given that the top 10 teams in each conference now make the play-ins/playoffs.
All the more reason to play Bagley.
On this team, he is still the best rebounder (besides Thompson) that can stretch the floor. Basically he is the best complimentary big to Holmes.
Whatever else they can coax out of Bagley is extra gravy.
I agree he rebounds.
The problem is he is a black hole in every other aspect of the game. His lack of basic basketball knowledge kills the team.
I am not sure how he is a black hole. Most of his scoring is off the balls.
He only got about 4.1 touches from the elbow and from the post
https://go.nba.com/mjrz
Comparing this to 2018-2019 season. He got 8.8 touches from the elbow and from the post.
https://go.nba.com/r74k
Or you can check this out from RikSmits
https://craftednba.com/players/marvin-bagley-iii
Scroll all the way down to check out his usage by type. Most used type is spotting up.
it’s cause he doesn’t pass the ball. hence black hole. Ball goes in, never comes out.
Yes he does.
https://go.nba.com/4s2c
If you take the ratio of passes made over passes received, it does not seem to be out of place compared to the rest of the non ball handlers on the team.
You can say that his passes do not often lead to assists then that is correct.
Sorry but I watched enough games to know what his passes are. He will catch the ball as part of a set play where he is forced to pass to someone else as part of the play design. Other than that, his assist numbers speak for themselves. Or should I say number, as it’s never been plural for a season.
He is such a good athlete he can get into the lane, but it’s either a shot or a turnover at that point, never a pass.
And allows the other team to score at will.
lol…………don’t get fooled………..
That Bagley guy is the best rebounder, all because he is grabbing his own point-blank shot miss underneath the rim…
Lol isn’t that innovative
Heck if every one else on the team starts doing this, we will be the top offense in the league.
zesty AND true…
Is Bags better rebounder then Len? Metu?
Bags is a terrible defensive rebounder and not very good overall.
https://craftednba.com/players/marvin-bagley-iii
Here you go. 96th percentile offensive rebound and 75th percentile defensive rebound.
Or you can use this one.
https://go.nba.com/qwcf
Best on the team besides Whiteside.
You also have to remember that Bagley plays mostly as a forward whereas Len is exclusively a center, Metu is mostly a center.
Lol, you skipped average and went directly to terrible. That is unheard of.
Why are you using data to support your assertions and counter others? It’s almost like you think this information is available to anyone that wants to bother to check before they make a claim.
Your doing this thing all wrong ????
Seriously though, good points. Keep posting. Big ????
Yeah I enjoy these exchanges.
You know, I actually read and agree with a lot of your comments too by the way.
…what fans don’t understand is…
I really don’t see why. They’ve stressed the entire time about it and gotten nowhere.
I agree, I can’t believe people still need more time to evaluate Bags. If you are counting on Bagley for anything at all, you may as well just start previewing next years draft prospects in the 8-12 range.
He plays because he can help the team. There is no one on the team that has the same skill set.
How much he plays is to be determined by how productive he is.
He still has some potential and can jump.
He has very few actual basketball skills.
His lefty halfhook is the only consistently skillful move he has shown so far.
Marvin Bagley III – Stats & Analytics | CraftedNBA
… and can jump twice.
I disagree that he helps his team, at all. He is the epitome of empty stats. There are at least 3 better options at the 4.
Go ahead and put your faith in Marvin Bagley, I’m confident in my position that he’s not a good basketball player. A physical specimen he is, talented he is not.
It is not faith, it is statistic. I am not sure what you mean by empty stats.
I can’t say if he is going to be good or bad. Though I am pretty confident that he is better than Metu or Harkless. Probably similar productivity as Barnes but if Barnes is at the 4, there is no good option at the 3.
He is not as productive as Barnes. Barnes tries (mostly successfully) to make his teammates better, with good communication, ball movement, setting screens, moving without the ball. Bagley does almost none of these things.
Have you watched Bagley set a screen? It’s more of a “flash” move, he’s mainly focused on the roll hoping he gets the ball, he rarely sets his feet or gets good placement. When Holmes sets a pick he’s trying to knock you on your ass to free his teammates up. Even Barnes sets better picks. This is the difference about every aspect of Bagley’s game; it’s selfish and lacking the most basic element of the game – teamwork.
Yes Bagley’s screens are bad. He has to work on that.
But the most important skill for a big is rebounding. That is probably the single most important skill for a big to last in the the league.
You can play small with Barnes, the rebounding will suffer. You have to make up for it by applying more ball pressure. Which means exerting more defensive stamina. This team is pretty shallow in the guard and wing rotation to actually do that.
I am pretty sure Bagley is going to get around 20 minutes at PF. He is going to get a few minutes as a small ball center. How many minutes is dependent on how improved he is.
Fair. I’m hoping that’s enough to shop and ship him before the trade deadline, I don’t see much future for him here, and that’s by his own design. I used to be hopeful the guy could figure it out. I could care less if he does or doesn’t anymore.
We are picking at 10 and we were able to re sign Bagley. Not sure what Bagley’s ceiling is but we plan on finding out.
With a number 10 pick and Bagley’s potential we are headed for great things.
Thinking of this possibility is scary, cuz Kangz.
Official Bagley Evaluation from 2019 (still valid as of Sept. 2021):
I’d think that the stress of getting absolutely nothing out of passing on Luka Doncic would run a bit higher, particularly since the playoffs aren’t realistic.
As I said, he’ll either play his way into a larger role, or he’ll play himself out of town. Simply putting Bagley out to pasture at age 22 would be incredibly stupid.
Making Bagley earn minutes is not putting him out to pasture.
How many NBA players are out of the league after their third or fourth year?
The majority of them. Why should the Kings be limited by Bagley and the other summer league stars that are barely hanging on.
He’s already put himself out to pasture. Below average play, horrific defense and injuries.
For some reason three years of Bagley has not been enough for a lot of people.
For some reason seeing a 22 year old play in just 56 games in the last two years leaves some people curious if there is more there if he can stay injury free.
Big IF, but not unreasonable.
Their priority should be, should have been since the semi idiotic owner took over, to get better and build.
Trading Bagley would be an obvious move in that direction, then…
The teams from a decade ago have no relevance to Mcnair or any of the players now playing. It sucks for us fans but should be a nonfactor in decision making at the GM level
“Bagley needs 25+ mpg to prove himself” is an argument that’s been made for 3 years now
I suppose that when it stops being a valid argument, you’ll hear a lot less of it.
He obviously has holes in his game, but he rebounds well, has improved at stretching the floor, and puts the ball in the basket. He’s played less than a season-and-a-half of basketball games due to injuries, so what do you think the organization should do with him during a contract year? Try and build his value, or chain him to the bench?
If he’s terrible, sit him. If he shows improvement, let him run. This isn’t a playoff team, so there’s no downside. Worst-case scenario (other than injury) is that Bagley sucks, and is off the books next summer.
I know that there are some with very strong feelings about this who completely disagree. What will they do when Bagley plays? Turn off the broadcast? Walk out of the arena? Or just more of {gestures incoherently with hands}.
You have said he needs to be guaranteed 25+ minutes. You have said he needs to earn his minutes.
What is your point?
Ask someone else to read it to you if you’re unable to follow along. I’m not dumbing down my thoughts regarding Marvin Bagley to someone incapable of having an objective opinion about him.
Do you think Bagley should be guaranteed 25 minutes or should he earn his minutes?
Cannot dumb that down much more.
I think Bagley should earn his minutes. My objective opinion for years.
Bagley deserves NO mins. He hasn’t earned shit but a second jump.
The second jump is sweet…..
Bagley is one of 3 players on this team that can get you 20 pts on any given night. I think Barnes should start at the 4, but Bagley certainly can begin with 20 min a night in an 8-10 man rotation just to see if he can put it together. Why not? There’s nothing to lose and a volume scoring and rebounding forward to gain.
“Bagley needs to get twenty-five minutes per game, at minimum. He’ll either begin living up to his potential, or he’ll play himself out of town.”
Recognize that?
Bagley guaranteed 25+ minutes per game to earn a spot or play himself out of town.
So he plays no matter what according to you.
If one thing happens, you do this.
If another thing happens, you do that.
This and that are not the same thing.
Yeah, he plays until he shows what he is, a player, or not. Dumb enough yet?
I don’t think Bagely deserves any minutes unless he earns them.
I can’t believe we still have to talk about Bags on this team.
This is one of the Kings biggest issues…,Trying the same stupid ass ideas over and over and playing these chumps when they shoulda moved on long ago. Vivek loves compounding his mistakes.
And News flash—Bagely is not and won’t be a good player. Bench big at best I believe.
Bagley has basically averaged 25 minutes a game for three years. When he actually plays.
So we give him 25 minutes again and expect things to change?
Lol or we can give him 30 minutes. Do you want to see Bagley or Thompson play? There is your answer.
or Barnes. I hate Barnes at the 4, except when the other option is Bagley. I’d rather start Metu, honestly. I think with a little seasoning Metu can get you the same stats, roughly, with better team defense and chemistry.
Do they guarantee him 25+ plus minutes over another player or do they make him earn his minutes?
If one thing happens, you do this.
If they guarantee him 25+ minutes other players sit.
If another thing happens, you do that.
If they make him earn his minutes he must compete for a spot on the floor with other players.
Dumb enough yet?
You get to choose one. Not too hard…..
Maybe the Titanic just took on a little water, let’s give another year or two to see if shows up at the port.
I mean he’s 6 months younger than Davion Mitchell. I don’t think it’s quite as much of a done deal as the Titanic.
He has three more years of NBA experience too.
And in those 3 years he has played about the same number of game mins as Mitchell did in college. Development comes through games in part.
I love me some Bagley arguments on here. The best part is both sides can’t believe how ridiculous and naive the other side is ????
I would love if Bagley suddenly figured it out. I just don’t see any reason to set aside minutes for him at this point.
Bagley’s minutes have been consistent for three years. 25.3, 25.7, 25.9. His scoring over that time has been consistent too. 14.9, 14.2, 14.1
His rebounds have also been consistent. 7.6, 7.5, 7.4
You’re arguing he needs 25 minutes a night to prove what he is. I’m simply arguing that over 118 games at 25 minutes per game he’s shown that he’s a 14 PPG 7 RPG player who isn’t a good defender and I no longer think he deserves an automatic allocation of minutes.
Isn’t he the best choice, this argument aside, to start minutes at PF right now? I think that’s the main reason you start Bagley. Because he’s the best option of what’s largely not a very productive lot.
Bagley has spent three years showing the world who he is.
If he earns 48 minutes a game let him have them. If not put him on the bench. The NBA knows what kind of player he is. One with “potential” but for three years has done nothing.
If he plays well his “potential” is defined. If he sits on the bench other teams are looking at his “potential”
Playing Bagley 25 minutes just to showcase him is dumber than anything Vlade did.
If he earns his spot play him. If not sit him.
I don’t recall saying anything about the whole point of Bagley playing was to showcase him for other teams, even though it’s certainly one of the reasons for doing so.
You’ve shown time and time again that you’re either incapable of objectively comprehending anything said about Bagley, or you’re somehow compelled to continue your one-note solo ad nauseam.
Play on, big boy.
“Bagley needs to get twenty-five minutes per game, at minimum. He’ll either begin living up to his potential, or he’ll play himself out of town. This team doesn’t get to just guess about what may or may not happen, and hope for the best.” Andy Sims
Guarantee playing time to show what he really is for the fourth year in a row.
Let’s say that you were injured, say, during the course of your job, and weren’t able to work to your potential, or maybe even work at all for periods of time. Do you feel that this would be a proper time to evaluate your worth to the company? Do you feel that your work being graded in the same manner as a non-injured person would accurately reflect your skill level?
Remember, your future regarding where you work, or even if you’re allowed to stay in your chosen profession is entirely dependent on this evaluation. Oh, and it’s being done by someone who knows very little about the actual nature of the work.
Me, I’d say that someone would have to live in their own world that lacks all context to think that’s good, or rightly determines the nature of your employment in that field.
Bagley is an asset of indeterminate value, but who may be able to live up to his considerable potential. And you would let a #2 pick just roll out of town without him having the chance to show what he is, or what he ain’t?
You’re very generous with other people’s money, but you give off a strong they owe me vibe. I’m grateful that you aren’t in charge of anything important.
Are you saying that Bagley should be guaranteed playing time?
Are you saying Bagley should earn his minutes?
Pick one.
He is saying he should probably be getting those mins to begin with and give one final shot to see what they have before pulling the plug. If Metu or Harkless or whoever is way better in camp and early games then sit him. Just not likely they are better.
Don’t think anyone is arguing just give him 25 a night regardless of team and play. Just don’t chain him to the bench as an automatic 12th man as some on here are apt to want right now. He’s been part of a successful starting lineup…considering that not much changed in the top 5-6 players, don’t see a big reason to change that.
I’ve said it before, but Marvin Bagley becoming a real player and asset (John Collins esque) is the type of surprise (luck) the Kings really need. If there is even a 10-15% chance that happens, you try it out for a bit until blatantly proven otherwise. Your other choice is Metu which while nice contributor isn’t getting you anywhere.
This is exactly my thought to a Tee. My preference is to trade the Tree’d Bagley one, but absent that and hope you can get better than the 14 & 7 player with bad defense that you’ve been getting. Maybe the strides he makes this summer translates, for instance.
It’s not impossible just because there’s a general dislike of Marvin Bagley III.
It is soooo very unlikely Bagely is gonna be good. Ain’t happening.
They will play him and people can see how shitty he remains but I don’t want Bags playing just for his trade value. He has to earn those minutes by actually playing well or decent, which is his ceiling
i realize you said similar. I’m just piling on.
.
Marvin that wants to be here hustles and goes after 360 dunks. Marvin that doesn’t want to be here gives you terrible defense and a stinky attitude.
I think that about 60-75% of us feel Bagley has already played his way out of town. He social media’ed his way out about 2 years ago, but his play last year was absolutely pedestrian.
In football, teams regularly bury top round draft picks on their depth charts if they don’t show up in training camp and during practices. In baseball, all draft picks must toil away through the farm system before cracking the big league rotation. Only in basketball do these terrible lottery pick players get year after year to start. Teams should always be fielding the best starting lineup on their team, but what do I know?
When did Bagley miss training camp or team practices?
Bagley has not missed practices?
He did miss practices while he re-habed away from the team, when I know for a fact most injured players still show up for practice, film sessions, sit courtside at games, etc.
But since he had permission to rehab at home, can he miss practices when he wasn’t required or even expected to be there?
I mean, I skipped church on Sunday for the 2500th week in a row. Do you think that there were any worshipers wondering why I wasn’t there?
Out of all his injuries he has not missed any practice?
Nobody from the Kings organization has ever said that part of Bagley’s slow development is due to missing practices and games?
Haha, of course they have, you dope.
So why do you try to say he has not missed practices?
So Bagley has missed so many practices that nobody realizes he is missing?
LOL, that is not even remotely the same. I didn’t realize a house of worship is the same as a game of basketball.
To your point of permission, yes he had it, but that doesn’t mean jack in the eyes of his teammates and staff. He chose to remove himself.
I’ve done a lot of coaching over the years of few different sports and I’ve never had an injured player remove themselves from the team…unless they quit.
I had a girl in a cast never play a single game but showed up for every game and practice to learn the game and support her team. She was 14 and showed more maturity than a certain pro NBA player.
Sorry Andy, but there is no devil’s advocate here.
I wonder if guaranteed contracts have something to do with it? In football, it’s easy to bury a struggling high-round draft pick because the investment in them has been minimal. It’s put-up-or-shut-up as soon as they hit training camp. In baseball, most contracts are measly until a player hits the big leagues. In both sports, if the team gets a bad feeling about the player, they can cut the player with little financial remorse. Basketball, with its guaranteed contracts, may feel a need to “invest” more time and opportunities into a player because they are on the hook for their full big-league sized contract. If they can’t showcase the player or turn them around, the player’s contract is dead weight on their books for years.
Also, tanking.
He literally was part of one of the better starting line ups in the NBA rating wise, basically tied with the Kings best line up overall. So it kind of seems they already are playing their best line up…but what do I know?
But how can we be sure that wasn’t a fluke or that the other players buoyed him along? If he truly is one of the best players this training camp and he has turned the proverbial corner then by all means start him. It’s a new season, with new players and rotations. Let’s find out who the 5 best players are come Oct 19.
Yeah all for finding out who best 5 are. I just pointing at that they have been playing best line up. And unless there is some major shift and Metu comes in balling out over Bagley, I don’t see that changing.
“Was” is the key word. For the fraction of time he was available to play the starting line up was statistically good.
Using the statistics for Bagley’s actual playing time to predict his “potential” as a player who actually plays is problematic.
The statistic that is most important and makes all of his other statistics irrelevant is the number of games he is actually available to play in.
Of course games played is an issue. But since nobody is currently injured, the question is who should play and how much. Don’t think any of us can predict who is injured come end of October.
The rest of the NBA sees the world differently.
Using Bagley’s per 36 minute statistics and assuming he will play 82 games he has some value in a trade.
Looking at reality….he has never averaged more than 25 minutes per game, he has never played anything close to an entire season.
Nobody has made a real effort at getting Bagley because of reality.
We all know Marvin sucks, but the question is where might he suck the least? At the end of the bench DNP-CD, or on OKC or PHI I hear you saying, but until then, there are reasons to start him, which I detailed previously.
If you start Marvin, with Davion, Fox, HB and Holmes, (1) you gratify his ego and (2) keep him on a short leash and (3) surround him with defenders and our best scorer in Fox to * theoretically * disincentivize his worst tendencies.
It is not that Marvin deserves to start, it is you may be able to most hide him and resuscitate his trade value in this role. By contrast if you bring him off the bench, his mentality is “I need to make an immediate impact to stay on the floor, and earn my next contract” and he starts quick shooting and pressing and anxiousness and insecurity gets the best of him.
While there is advantage of going against 2nd stringers it is more disadvantageous the mindset that may predominate and performance as result. He would perceive it is as slight too to lose his starting role to Metu, which would mess w/ his head and warrior zen approach.
I am not advocating for Marvin as a starter based on merit, I am just trying to look at it objectively and trying to make the best of a bad situation. If you start Marvin you have to start Davion bc Davion helps teammates by the pressure he applies on the ball and this make the defensive responsibilities of teammates easier, and no one needs his defensive job to be made easier than Marvin.
All this is common sense to anyone who knows the game of basketball, in other words, it will escape the mental grasp of our coach.
On another topic, Buddy looks great and so does HB. Their body fat % is down and this is encouraging on the trade front or the non-trade front. I think Buddy is going to impress in camp, and this bodes well whether he stays or goes. I will have much more to say on this in the near future.
I don’t mind Bagley coming off the bench and play as a role of energy big..
But he should just focus on grabbing offensive rebound…hit some shots…
and I agree with you that he should play along with Mitchell…..
If Bagley would simply accept the Metu/Montrez role, he’d be a starter and probably major clog in the rotation. Unfortunately he (and some of us fans ironically) think he needs to be Jokic. Until he changes that mindset, he’ll always be frustrated and let down.
that’s 13. I know you meant 9-10 but how does the coach know who is hot?
I think Ramsey is out. TT is fist center option and Len is used for situational times.
Tight 8 man rotations are great but you need no injuries and 8 guys clearly better than 9 though 15. So stuck with 9-10 but, again, how do you assess “hot” without playing time?
I should have added that subbing is also based on matchups. Skilled coaches are good at making these adjustments. If someone starts lighting it up or shutting down the opponent’s top scorer, you ride that player. If someone is acting like they are an expressway for their man to get to the rim, pull him and put someone in that will guard. The best coaches don’t hold grudges but recognize that sometimes you have a bed night, might be a different player in the next game.
match up’s apply to TT vs. Len.
This actually may be the most coherent, and complete, explanation for how to deploy this roster I’ve seen or heard. I don’t like the Idea of Len and TT, but I think they could each work with the “bench mob” you describe, dependent on matchups.
Mitchell, Hield, TD, (or King), Harkless, and Len/TT? Sounds like a serviceable bench.
Should the Kings put their best line up on the floor regardless of the player’s egos?
This. Very few players on this team have any right to demand minutes in the NBA. If you’re on the Kings and don’t have enough skills to guarantee 20+ minutes every night, than your ego doesn’t matter. My consistent worry with Luke has been his player’s coach mentality and caring about player egos, that stuff needs to go.
When you have the worst defense and longest streak without playoff appearances you should not even discuss this garbage.
Puke Walton’s Playbook
How bout if you don’t put in the effort on defense, you don’t get to start or play big minutes? That should make it easier, and should have been the case all along.
I’d agree with that but only if the Monte is prepared for the locker room dysfunction that will follow. With the premise both Buddy and Bagley wouldn’t start and would have their minutes reduced. It wouldn’t surprise me if both demanded a trade within the first few weeks of the season.
Sounds ideal
The last thing management wants is for players to request a trade. It kills whatever value they may have had on the market and becomes a cloud in the locker room. The fact that it is already known that McNair has attempted to trade both of them is bad enough, no point in making it worse by benching them in hopes of a playoff pipedream.
IMO, Monte may tell Walton to play Buddy and Bagley more than he may want to, if only to squeeze any value out of them for a trade.
Jokes, man. They keep us sane.
I actually don’t have an issue with Buddy, he’s a legitimate NBA player, he should just get used to coming off the bench. His defensive liabilities are too much to overcome when going against 1st team players.
Bagley is an unskilled but physically-gifted person, he’s 2yrs away from being 2yrs away. IMO, he’s not an NBA level player, he’s soft, has a poor attitude, and doesn’t play well within a team concept.
Sounds familiar…
So, no Fox, right?
If his man is repeatedly getting past him, put Davon in for a while. Later Fox goes back in. See how they are playing. Good players benefit from seeing the game from the bench. They learn and do better.
That’s how Kevin Durant got so good, amirite?
“Ooooooh, DON’T let your man get past you. Well now I feel silly. I couldn’t see that from the floor, but now from the bench POV I see that I’m NOT supposed to let him by me. Thanks coach!”
Petition to see Walton juggle flaming chainsaws first.
The answer to the question is “no.”
This answer also applies to every other NBA team, and youth leagues going all the way down to third grade. There has never, not once, been a group of basketball players who, in toto, were content with the amount of playing time that they were getting.
It wouldn’t matter if one big and a guard left Sacramento, and two wings came in, someone is not going to be happy about their minutes. This circumstance is the exact opposite of unique.
in toto
I felt that rain. Down in Africa, I felt that rain…
Vlade McNair to Luke:
But who has the high ground?
That’s what training camp is for. Let’s see who reports in excellent condition and has the best mind-set (selflessness, alacrity, compassion for teammates) and desire to play defense. There will be injuries and transactions, hopefully involving malcontents. The “bizarre” trade for Thompson possibly indicates some outside-the-box lineups to counter rivals from the best conference in the league. I am hopeful.
I don’t think Bagley will make a 9-player rotation. Your reasoning for predicting him to start was for rebounding but he’s actually not a good defensive rebounder. The team can play him a few games like they did with Bjelica last year, enough to show he’s tradeable.
He’s averaged seven defensive boards a game, per 36, and just under eleven total rebounds.
What would you say qualifies a player as a good defensive rebounder?
Someone who plays defense as well.
Crazy that someone would move the goalposts in a basketball discussion. Although I suppose that basketball courts can also have goalposts.
Regardless, your predetermined takes about Marvin Bagley don’t offer anything useful.
I think he can earn a spot on the roster.
Who moved the goal post?
You asked the question.
The question started as being about defensive rebounding . Then it shifted to playing defense, a different issue.
I think that to be considered a good defensive rebounder one should play defense. Bagley’s numbers are not great enough to ignore the fact that he is an incomplete player.
So again, as I pointed out, and Daydreamer clarified perfectly, they aren’t the same thing at all.
Think about responding to the actual premise once in awhile.
Playing defense is part of defensive rebounding.
You are using per 36 minute statistics. What about starting with actual numbers because he rarely plays at all.
What a silly attempt to muddy the waters. He’s a bad defender and a good rebounder. Both things are relevant individually, but being a bad defender doesn’t prevent him from being a good rebounder.
Standing in the paint and solely rebounding while playing zero defense is not a good thing.
His somewhat decent defensive rebounding statistic shows he is one dimensional.
If these perennial losers are worried about minutes, the season’s already lost.
Although I don’t trust Luke to allocate them properly either. Sigh.
I chatted on the twitters with 1951. This message is to satisfy his curiosity if it is really me.
Joking, I’ll get the invite out!
Flagged for identity theft.
Das vadanya, conmrade.
Yes, the main problem with the Kings is the overabundance of mediocre players
Who starts isn’t as important as who finishes. Let’s start the season and see who earns 4th quarter minutes.
If keeping players “happy” (with equal minutes) takes precedence over “winning” this franchise will continue to be a perennial loser……
Hi all,
It appears that there is another management position available in the unofficial TKH member fantasy basketball league!
This squad has potential keepers that includes Westbrook, Jokic, CP3, Capela, and Metu nemesis Valanciunas! Keep three.
First to claim can join!
How about we merge them with my team and we go 13?
Do I get to switch out Kawhi for one of the players on that team?
“How about me and my…uh, brother?”
-anonymous
Which website are you using?
ESPN.
I’m not sure why keeping a bunch of these players happy even matters. I suppose there are some folks who think this is a playoff/.500 team, but I don’t buy it. I think the guys you need to keep happy are core guys who you plan to have around. Otherwise, play the guys who earn it and who are going to help the team win. Sit or deal the other ones.
I’m not worried about pissing Bagley or Buddy off and having them demand a trade. I think that’s effectively already happened, at least with Bagley. If one of those guys goes rogue at this point, that’s on the front office for dithering around for so long. If (when) Bagley gets hurt again and can’t be dealt, again, on the front office for not getting work done.
I just don’t see any point in worrying about managing egos on a team that can’t manage to finish 10th in its conference. That being said, I don’t expect much out of Walton in terms of doing the right thing.
This season, with pretty much the same damn roster as last season, a 35 win team and eventual #10 pick, is…
What he just said……
Play the guys you are building around. Haliburton, Fox, Holmes, and Barnes. Let the rest earn their minutes. If another player steps up give the minutes to them. Nobody is sacred.
Give Mitchell minutes to show what he has and to learn. Don’t get dumb and guarantee him a spot in the rotation.
Buddy is going to be a bench player on any real team in the NBA. Put him on the bench here.
Bagley is now one of ten guys trying to crack the rotation.
And, who knows, taking this approach my improve the reputation of the Kings organization around the league.
Would it not bode well to be known as a team that is going to honor hard workers and not cater to prima donnas?
Eh, I don’t think people care much about that type of branding unless you’re winning. If you’re a winning franchise then sure, maybe a guy that really values hard work (like a Jimmy Butler type) may care. But the truth is that every decent team in the league, and probably ever bad team as well, honors hard work. Until you can prove that your “hard-working” brand leads to success, it’s irrelevant.
No
They all won’t be happy with minutes. Some will accept it, some will try to play differently to get more minutes and some will pout. Common occurance.
Problem is that Kings have a lot of players at the same talent level. That will help in time of injury but on a bad team, breeds discord.
Bagley- Kings have no clear superb PF. Bagley is best combination of size, rebounding and outside potential that they have. He gets the job by default. Harkess is a worse rebounder, is worse as an offensive threat. Metu too inconsistent. Barnes can play 4 sometimes but rebounding suffers.
Bagley definitely should be the best PF option on the squad, but that’s the problem, he isn’t. Barnes, Metu, and Harkless are all better basketball players than Bagley, even with their own personal deficiencies.
Winning keeps everyone happy, has Luke tried that yet?
I think the better question is can the Kings acquire enough talent that deserves significant NBA minutes to make this a real issue?
Is the current roster feasible? I think so. Not optimal, but certainly doable. Considering last year‘s minutes Fox, Hield, Haliburton, Barnes, Bagley and Holmes all averaged between 26 and 36 minutes per night (when the played) for a total of 190 minutes. If those are our fist 6 guys (I think Hield or Bagley should start the game on the bench, depending on the matchup), then we have 50 minutes available for the rest of the bench. Depending on matchups, we 20-30 minutes should go to Michell (he looks great, but he is a rookie) and TD. The other 20-30 for Thompson/Len/Harkless/Metu. As the year goes on, there will be injuries and off-nights that will likely result in more minutes being available for the bench guys. (Or a big trade makes all of this irrelevant).
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