It's no secret that the Kings Herald staff is, with few exceptions, quite fond of Harry Giles. It was a nice treat when Twitter user NBEinstein shared a highlight montage of Harry's best passes of this season.
Harry Giles's best passes of the season.pic.twitter.com/2yiucTLdab
— NBEinstein (@NBEinstein) May 2, 2020
Harry himself then chimed to ask, other than Nikola Jokic, is there any other bigs in the NBA who are better passers?
After Nikola what big in the league pass better 👀👀 https://t.co/cxJY7cymvN
— Harry Giles III (@HGiiizzle) May 2, 2020
But the thing I loved to see were the tweets of support from Harrison Barnes and Bogdan Bogdanovic:
— Harrison Barnes (@hbarnes) May 2, 2020
Easy layups 💯 https://t.co/JZ7VBdal7d
— Bogdan Bogdanovic (@LeaderOfHorde) May 2, 2020
While we still don't know if the season will be finished, we do know Harry's free agency is pending. The Kings will be limited to just $3.9 million in first year salary with raises each year after. With the salary cap possibly taking a hit, it will be curious to see if the current crisis manages to save the Kings from their past mistake.
He has sweet passes: no-looks, bounce passes when he’s in the paint looking like he’s getting ready to jump, through traffic, etc. I truly hope that from this crisis there somehow isn’t a big market for Harry & the Kong’s can retain him.
I’m much more interested in developing him than Bagley. Harry has a mid-range/outside shot, passes well, and is aggressive on D. Polish him up, dial back the fouls, & he can be something special.
I like Harry a lot more than Bagley, especially from a team play/willingness to do the little thing perspective, and I think he has the better attitude and mindset to fulfill his potential.
However, due to his injuries and diminished athleticism, his ceiling is lower than Bagley.
Also, Bagley was a much higher investment, and this team has obviously decided to invest more in Bagley than in Harry.
If only we could merge Harry’s attitude, court vision and BBIQ with Bagley’s body…
What’s funny is they are almost foils of one another… one is known for his great assists, while the other rarely records one. One is on the slow battle back from injuries, while the other is just becoming injury prone. One is a fan favorite, while the other leaves a lot to be desired from fans.. really interesting. A tale of two Dukies.
This is a good point. I would add that Harry both loves and is beloved by the fan base in a way that I do not that Marvin will ever attain. Not unless we all start to like subpar rap albums.
The team moves better when Harry hold the ball in high post……..and the team got some easy basket with Harry on the floor…even Bazemore benefited from him a lot…with Bazemore only played with the team for a relatively short period of time.
This team need to keep him, no doubt…!
Is this where I’m supposed mention that guys like Julius Randle have a higher assist rate than HGIII?
Is this where I point out that Walton is a bad coach who rarely ran plays that put Giles in a playmaker position?
Because that would have taken the ball out of Fox’s hands. 😉
Ziller needs a photo. Take this advise from a Ziller meme
As does Nemanja, which means Giles isn’t even the best passing big on his own team. Don’t get me wrong, I like Harry, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves. In the end I think it’s just a silly tweet by Giles and his teammates. Nothing should really be made of it other than random Kings banter on a site like this.
Agree with Ziller that one doesn’t necessarily follow from the other. If the coach doesn’t put Giles into a position to take advantage of his passing strengths, then his assist rate is not necessarily an indication of his passing ability.
I think Walton probably puts Bjelly & HG3 in a similarly poor position to take adv. of their passing. Idk if Bjelly’s actually a better passer than HG3, but passing’s definitely 1 of Bjelly’s strengths.
Buddy has a higher AST% than Harry, too, for that matter, at least this season.
Um.. Buddy needs to pass to teammates .. Am I right? Harry has got this.
Please don’t….wait… can we boo here?
Assist rate doesn’t really measure passing ability so much as it reflects role.
I’d say in bigs specifically, it’s more of an indicator than the “traditional” ballhandling positions.
Among centers, Giles had the 9th highest percentage of productive passes (assist, free throw assist, hockey assist) last/this season. Giles is still very raw, but he has a unique ability to pass the ball in a way that actually creates good shots for his teammates. And I think it’s important to point out he only had 9 total assists (300 MP) at Duke. One would think he still has room to grow.
The “among centers” thing is a bit of a canard, in my opinion. I think that he should be measured against centers and power forwards. Abedayo, Sabonis and Horford are all listed as PFs, for example, as are Kevin Love, Bjelica, Anthony Davis and Julius Randle.
Giles is a fine passing big, but I think he’s waaaaay off in his self-assessment as to where he rates among the inventory of current NBA bigs.
Eh, I don’t mind if players have an inflated opinion of themselves. In fact, I think it’s vital in the NBA as long as it doesn’t lead to complacency. Which I don’t see any reason to think it does in Giles case. Especially when the thing he’s taking pride in is something so vital and positive in terms of team basketball. Ultimately, he’s clearly a talented passer. Especially (broken record time, but I still get the feeling he’s being judged as if he’s a mid-career vet) for a barely 22-year-old. He’s a year younger than Adebayo. Two years younger than Sabonis.
Also, I don’t know, and would really like to know where RORDOG is pulling those stats, but on NBA.com Adebayo, Sabonis, Horford, Love, Davis, and Randle are all categorized as Centers along with Giles.
According to NBA.com, only 7 players this year total had a higher percentage of assists per pass made. The vast majority of those guys get significantly more touches. IMO, it’s actually really interesting to look at Harry’s numbers per touch. He’s 63rd among Cs in touches per game, but 19th in pts per touch (NBA.com clearly categorizes PF/C types as Cs, and “Forwards refer to SFs and combo forwards), above guys like Turner, Love, Vucevic, Randle, etc. With a little more time I’ve love to look at his assists per touch (.06-ish) vs other bigs.
Assists per front court touch:
Jokic – 0.12
Giles – 0.10
Sabonis – 0.10
Adebayo – 0.13
Horford – 0.11
Vucevic – 0.08
Love – 0.09
Randle – 0.08
AD – 0.07
Gasol – 0.10
this is the productive passes stat page: https://stats.nba.com/players/passing
Tangential to this conversation, I said it at draft time and I’ll say it now with the potential of trading Hield in mind, I really want the Kings to target Claxton.
Players having an inflated opinion of themselves is fine as long as their opinion doesn’t become so overinflated that it becomes delusional (glares at Bagley).
well that’s just the way stats.nba.com works. You can’t filter by PF/C like you can on bball ref. Even if you filter for players at least 6’10’ he still has the 9th highest productive pass percentage. I think he makes passes that very few players of his size can make. It remains to be seen if he can do it consistently.
I actually don’t have any questions about his ability to be a positive offensive contributor. My only question is if he’ll be an average or above defender. Which I think he will. His challenges on that end are pretty typical of a young big. But he’s has the physical profile and smarts to overcome them IMO.
yeah I think people still misinterpret where Giles is on the developmental curve. It reminds me of Shaun Livingston in a way. Injuries have just screwed up the timeline, and lowered the possibility he’ll reach his ceiling, but the talent is a bit underappreciated. I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if Giles has a “Neo stopping bullets” and it all just comes together. Part of that is wishful thinking since he’s so easy to root for. But you see glimpses of basketball brilliance and can’t help but wish he’ll put it all together eventually.
I’ll be surprised if he ever becomes a core rotation, 24+ mpg player for an upper level team, but I’ve been wrong before, and I’ll be wrong again.
I’m interested to see what kind of action he gets in free agency. These types of numbers won’t slide under many GM’s radars. Not sure I agree with the perception that the lack of a decent offer will bring him back to Sacramento.
Yeah, I can’t claim to have any idea what the market will be for him. I just think $3.9MM was a small price to pay to keep control over him for at least another year.
I think his defense will be fine in terms of BBIQ, but I’m not sure if he has the strength to guard C’s or the lateral quickness to guard PF’s.
I don’t see any reason to think he won’t add plenty of strength.
He’s the best highlight reel when it comes to passing bigs on the Kings, but Bjelica is the better overall passer between the two. And aside from Jokic, Marc Gasol springs to mind as a big that is probably a better passer than Giles. Without looking, I’m sure there are others.
Jason Williams was flashier. Mike Bibby was better.
Jason Williams was flashier. Mike Bibby was better.
Yeah, Gasol, Sabonis, Horford…plenty of really good passing big men in the league.
Would it be controversial to say that that Marvin Bagley is the worst passing big in the NBA?
Not to say Bagley doesn’t (potentially) have other skills.
Not controversial at all. Although I am sure that someone will be able to dredge up some big with worse passing stats in his first two seasons.
Zach Randolph says hi.
In Randolph’s worst season, his assist percentage is slightly lower than Bagley’s best season (5.7% to 5.9%) but Bagley’s usage was higher (24.2% to 23.0%).
Usage to assist ratio (higher is worse)
I would argue Bagley’s passing stats from his best season are actually worse than Randolph’s worst.
That was my intention. Currently, Bagley is comping like a throw back PF, who was solid in his own right, but earned only 2 all-star nods and a 3rd team all-nba.
Just for giggles here are their 2nd year comps, small sample size for sure. Check out their PER36 and Advanced stats:
About the only thing Marvin does better is block shots, but that’s not saying much when compared to ZBo.
That ORtg and DRtg is a horror show.
Who could forget the great Yinka Dare? I think that was a real person anyways…
I mean, he’s not bad, and he certainly has some fun passes. However, aside from Harry, I think you’d be hard-pressed to find another person who genuinely thinks that.
OT: Shaq said today that he’s heard an NBA team could be sold and moved to Vegas.. anyone else worried??
NO not worried, good to hear you are out of other things to worry about. The quote says several teams are up for sale and one may be going to Vegas. #1. I don’t recall Kings being for sale. #2. Shaq isn’t a reliable source. #3. The inference would be someone wanting to move a team to Vegas is kicking the tires on those teams for sale.
Didn’t know me asking this question implied I wasn’t worried or concerned about other things.. thank you for clearing it up nonetheless.
Post seems out of place, not Giles passing related, but who am I to police the comments, my apologies. The inference would be in Shaq’s quote.
Whats your opinion of the Giles best passing big man stuff?
I like Giles the guy, and thusly, Giles the project, way more than Giles the current NBA player. As a pending low level FA the posts could serve him well in driving some interest.
My short and flawed opinion is he is a better than average passer for a big. He also has trouble staying on the floor due to being undersized and misused most of the year. The value of passing in a vacuum for Giles looks great, if a team is looking for a ready to go pass specialist PF, or a project with some valuable and rare skills Giles might be your man.
Not with the lease that’s in place.
Yup, and even if there wasn’t a 30 year lease, I don’t think the NBA would vote to move the Kings after getting the deal they got from Sacramento to build the arena. It’s a model for their ideal partnership with cities helping to build an arena. If they screw over the city of Sacramento, they’ll have a hell of a time to get any other city to cooperate with them in the future.
Curious to see how other teams value Harry. We see the potential and the flashes of brilliance, but to be fair, he doesn’t have an overwhelming body of work to date. I feel like he’s got future All Star level talent, but I don’t know if other teams (or even the Kings) do.
Just thinking back to WCS, how he put up better stats as a starter, and barely got the minimum.
I was just thinking about this. The one thing the Kings have going for them, in regards to retaining Harry, is this Coronavirus. I really believe teams are going to be less willing to spend on free agents due to their lack of income in this shortened season and the uncertainties ahead for next season. I’ve seen in many places that the cap is going to fall so there might be a chance the Kings can get Harry back next season on the cheap. Maybe a 2 year deal with the second being a PO?
It sure is going to be an interesting off season, especially if there is no resolution to this season. I wonder what Harry and his advisers are hoping for. A three or four year contract from the Kings? Your suggestion of a 2 year with PO for the next to hit the market again? A lower salary to prove himself on a team with a winning system like Boston or Dallas? The economy of the NBA had already been in a state of flux, it is really going to be interesting to see how teams budget and what they value this off season.
Agreed, It is going to be tough sledding for a lot of FA’s this off-season for sure. As for Harry it will be at least as tough. I hope he lands in a good place either here or wherever.
I would like to lock him up long term if possible.
NOTE TO ADMINS: I’ve noticed that if I am typing something, in this case a reply, as someone else posts something I am moved away from the typing window to the new comment.
Harry is a nice guy to have on the team…he works as hard as he can considering the limitations that his injuries have placed upon him. I wince a little (okay…a lot) when you write that you “feel like he’s got future All Star level talent”. I have been watching basketball for a lot of years and I have seen some outliers make All Star teams, but I have not seen anything in Harry’s history or trajectory that would lead me to believe that he will be anything beyond a better than average NBA player. He will have a nice career (if the parts hold up) but likely no All Star selections, which I suppose is the only way to confirm that someone has “All Star level talent”.
Passing is Giles best skill. Unfortunately he is sub average in rebounding, post defense, wing defense, and rim protection. Love the hope this dude brought our franchise but he had the worst plus minus on the team this year and it wasn’t even close.
I hope somehow, someway he stays with the Kings. I think he could turn out to be special. My first time on the new site. Pretty slick.
Thanks for stopping by! Don’t be a stranger
The thing with Giles is I think a lot of his struggles (foul trouble, defense) stem from being played out of position.
I know we are in the small ball era, but today’s centers need to have at least some “girth” as Joerger put it. For that reason I think you could actually make a case that Harrison Barnes would be a more effective center than Giles in most lineups.
I think a competent franchise would have used Harry’s redshirt year to really develop his outside shot and play him as more if a stretch 4. I think Harry can be effective guarding the Bjelly’s and Tollivers of the league. And it also could help his passing game at the high post if others respect his shot more.
Not to say that Giles can’t develop his body and eventually be a solid center in today’s league. But I feel like if he were to get picked up by another team, they’ll play to his strengths more. And we’ll wonder (yet again)… “why didn’t he do those things for US?”
I think the injuries have kinda pigeonholed him into being a center. He has athletic bursts, but you can see when he runs he’s kind of plodding. I still think he can improve on defense though. He’s too smart to be that dumb when he’s protecting the paint. And to your point, he should be stretching the floor more, but it’s obvious he’s not allowed to attempt to do so for whatever reason. If you look at Centers who’ve taken at least 50 shots from the midrange, Giles has the second best FG% from that zone (46.6%). You’d think they’d try to find out if he can extend out to the three point line.
Bonus 2 things I still believe: Giles has the highest ceiling on the team and Bagley will likely be a bust (meaning average starter) if Giles doesn’t get close to his ceiling on this team. Bagley is like Cousins in some ways because the value of his skill set is limited unless his teammates can mask his glaring flaws. They tried to do that with Dedmon, but that was an epic failure. I think Giles is the key to unlocking Bagley’s potential. If I were running the team, and I had the power to re-sign Giles, I would tell Luke to get Giles and Bagley on the floor together as much as possible next season to see if they can build some chemistry.
Yeah, because of the plodding style of play you mentioned, I don’t see Harry as more than a very good bench 4. At least right now. If he can regain some burst, I’d say quality starting 4. If he puts on muscle, he’s a decent starting 5.
I think Bags and Giles could work as a bench big unit, but as of right now I think they get eaten up by starters. Not enough rim protection there, in my opinion.
I bought a Harry Giles jersey when he was red shirted. So he can do no wrong in my eyes.
Nice new house guys.