The word 'tweener' in the NBA was once used to refer to players that were too slow laterally to keep up with athletic small forwards, but too weak to battle with burly power forwards.
In the modern game, a 'tweener' sways between a wing (or power forward) and the center role due to the aforementioned defensive complications. Some players are never able to solidify into either one and remain a negative on the defensive end as they float in the upside-down of 'tweeners'.
Marvin Bagley III currently resides in an uncharted residence amongst John Collins, Julius Randle, Lauri Markannnen, and Christian Wood among others on land owned by Kevin Love and Jabari Parker.
Defensively, they are all negative outcasts in essentially every scenario. Yet for some of them, including Bagley, a glimmer of hope remains built around youth and development optimism. There is one path toward discovering if Sacramento's big man can become a positive player on the defensive end of the floor.
Experimentation.
Monte McNair's debut offseason as Kings' general manager included the polarizing signing of Hassan Whiteside and a less impactful non-guaranteed deal given to Frank Kaminsky. Adding Richaun Holmes into the equation, the roster featured three players that were undeniable centers and worries surfaced about Bagley's opportunity in that role.
Kaminsky did not make it past training camp, and Whiteside was given limited playing time before suffering a left hip flexor strain early in the season that sidelined him for a short stretch. This led to Marvin Bagley seeing action as the five-man on the floor, which was a welcome sight no matter the lackluster results.
Since returning from his absence, Whiteside's presence has eliminated Bagley's opportunity to progress and discover the intricacies of weakside help, pick-and-roll coverage, protecting the rim, etc.
Outside of a few short-lived outliers, all of Bagley's minutes have come alongside one of Holmes or Whiteside from that point on. There is no denying this has been a factor in the slightly improved defense, but Whiteside is not the savior some make him out to be.
The truth is that Hassan Whiteside is an extremely flawed defensive player in his own right who is likely gone after this season's conclusion.
What's more important? Winning three more games (if even) because Hassan Whiteside is on the floor, or discovering if the 21-year-old Marvin Bagley can potentially work his way from a crippling negative on defense to neutral by playing the center?
There are sparse flashes of verticality to hold onto from the Duke product. 6'11" with a 7'1" wingspan and an infamously spectacular second jump is an ideal prototype for a rim protector.
Is he usually a half-step late to rotate? Absolutely. Does he understand the proper methods of pick-and-roll defense? Negative. Is he foul prone due to a habit of jumping at everything? Undoubtedly.
Can he grow out of these flaws? Only if he is given an opportunity to experience these in-game and reflect on his mistakes during film sessions.
He is never going to be a perfect defender by any stretch of the meaning, but progressing towards neutral would be outstanding while most of his impact will come on the offensive end of the floor.
This is not to take away from the developments shown on the perimeter, even though he often finds himself with his feet crossed and blown by. It simply should not be decided that Marvin Bagley is a four, no questions asked.
Marvin Bagley has shown encouraging progress this season, primarily on offense, likely due to a more defined and limited role. The progression shown in his three-point shooting allows a possibility of him alongside a center who can't space the floor.
But in the NBA, you are what you can guard and on the other side of the ball, Bagley's ideal position remains undefined. He may be most competent as a power-forward who is not the primary player responsible for protecting the rim. He may be able to develop into a rim protector himself and enable lineups with five shooters to unlock De'Aaron Fox's driving ability. He might be both.
But we will never know if Bagley is not given the opportunity to learn both positions. Hassan Whiteside should not be the reason that Marvin Bagley is not given that chance.
Vlade said he could play the three and lately I am being told that we need to reevaluate Vlade the GM and give him credit because the Kings managed to play “break even” basketball – don’t look at the third worst point differential in the West, but I digress – through 23 games.
So, I am thinking that we should defer to our fallen genius and conclude that Bagley is a SF!
Haven’t you seen go end to end at least 3 times a game and take it all the way into the paint? Sure he turns it over 95% of the time, but he’s only in his 3rd year!
He’s clearly a PG.
Magic Johnson, only taller.
Giannis, only better second jump.
Muhammad Ali, only Greatest-er.
Luka Doncic, only Daddy-er.
Michael Jordan, only takes it more personally.
LeBron, only Kangzier.
Tom Brady, only MAGAier.
Wait …
Pervis Bagley, only Pervisier.
Finally you get it! It was considered joke at the time, but he is small forward. only problem is he is a really bad small forward.
People are telling you this?
I would suggest you don’t take those people very seriously. What a hilarious idea.
A brief conversation.
“No!”
Because this team would look exactly the same had we drafted Poku or Precious, and you just know Vlade would have had those two in his wheelhouse.
Bogi match would have been a guarantee which doesn’t leave much playing time for Tyrese, if he is selected at all!
What a dark alternate reality!
I can’t imagine (Kings) life without Tyrese.
We are already experiencing the alternate reality of drafting Bagley, not Luka
The morning after the draft was very sobering. 🙁
I think about Luka in my basketball dreams. Then I wake up and stare into the dark abyss of reality. But there, waiting in a halo and wings, is the angel Tyrese to pull me out of it.
Yeah I was fine with letting Bogi walk and at this point 1/3 or so of the way through the season, that seems like it was the right call. Bogi has been really bad for Atlanta thus far and he’s been injured most of the year.
Yeah, and imagine if Vlade was still the GM he probably would’ve overpaid to keep Bogi.
Yeah Vlade definitely would have given him like a 4/92 deal or something like that.
And would have traded the #12 overall for Frank Kaminsky.
Well, maybe we can get some fans of other teams to clamor for Vlade the way some fans did/do for Sam Hinkie.
We just need to come up with a slogan like “Trust The Process” that fans from other teams can get behind.
Hmmmm…… “Trust The Process”…………………………….”In Vlade We Trust”
…….how about “TRUST THE VLADE!”
***********
Once another franchise hires Vlade, we can then proceed to do some lopsided trading with him for the benefit of the Kings.
VD, now as ever, has far more invested in improving the Lakers than the Kings.
If you thought the Pau Gasol trade was lopsided, just wait til you see what Divac offers the Lakers for a return of squat.
Trust the Abscess.
TRUST VD!
Reminds me–I need to go buy some flowers and chocolates or something!
“Wow – Avoid the playoffs, Vlade Divac!”
“That’s good advice!”
Here’s hoping that McNair can treat symptoms of VD!
We had VD, now you can too!
Um…. no. There will not be any readjusting in any way shape or form. Vlade’s failure was total and absolute. This article about Bagley is proof enough of that.
Except Vlade would have passed on Haliburton and made an obscure, currently undrafted player very happy.
Yeah, maybe hang out with different people who aren’t morons.
Basketball is becoming more positionless with switching defenses and all the bigs spending time behind the arc. But assuming you have to pick positions and as much as I know I’m asking for ridicule for this opinion, Bagley is playing more like a 3 than anything else. He can’t guard anyone. 5s and 4s have overpowered him and his footwork is so bad that 3s blow by him like he’s standing still. On offense, he’s been most productive shooting 3s and cutting, a traditional SF role. He completely lacks the ability to finish strong in traffic, something you need from 4s and 5s. I think he’s closer to having enough speed and athleticism to guard 3s than he is to having the strength/will to guard 4s or 5s. At the end of the day, he’s not a starting caliber NBA player at any position right now and barely deserves bench minutes. Maybe that’ll change, but I see a faster path for him to being a serviceable SF than a 4 or 5 unless he puts on some serious bulk quickly.
I agree. I think Walton only trusts him on the floor right now when Holmes or Whiteside can be out there with him and help cover his deficiencies.
I was actually wondering this as well the last few weeks, a defensively horrible 3, at least until he improves his stance and footwork, learns to jump passing lanes, but closer to defensively tolerable than playing the 4 or 5.
He is the right fielder in Little League.
“Fallen Genius” hahaha
Isn’t he supposed to be the ideal running-mate for Fox? I mean, that’s why we drafted him over one of the best players to ever play basketball
Let the boy play, he’s improving a bit lets see if he can build on it through the season
The funny thing is, it may be Tyrese Haliburton that is limiting Bagley’s minutes. Simply stated, Fox, Barnes, Holmes, Hield and Haliburton are the roster’s best five, and there is a pretty big gulf between 5th and 6th. Bagley brings nothing to the defensive end that Holmes and Barnes don’t provide up front, and Haliburton is the better and more versatile offensive player.
Yup. At this point I think Walton is only starting Bagley in order to get him minutes that he otherwise can’t afford to in critical moments.
Truth be told, I feel Bagley would learn and perhaps be more successful coming off the bench against second units.
Bagley is an amalgam of the guys that started in front of Manu Ginobli. Tyrese is Manu.
Pretty much. He’s like all the guys on those good Spurs teams that started in the froncout alongside Duncan, but for some reason we can’t remember who they were.
Nazr Mohammed? Thiago Splitter? Boris Diaw? The Red Mamba?
Some guys I remembered. Diaw was pretty dece.
I guess Robert Horry is in there too, but If Bagley is to those guys as Tyrese is to Manu, then MB3 is largely replaceable and forgettable.
David Robinson!
FRANCISCO ELSON IS THE ONLY ONE THAT MATTERS!!
Francisco
Francisco! that’s fun to say!
Francisscooooo
Tyrese reminds me a little of Tony Parker with that teardrop shot.
Tyrese reminds me a little of Michael Jordan with that greatest player of all time thingy.
My two least favorite NBA players ever are the Boring Brothers, Manu and Parker. You guys are making me throw up a little bit.
And add this truth to be told as well. If we plan on winning against Philly tomorrow, then we need to combat their lineup with our own.
Simmons
Curry
Green
Harris
Embiid…with Maxey and Melton off the bench.
Tomorrow’s starting line up for us should be…
Fox
Hali
Buddy
Barnes
Holmes
We need Whiteside, Bagley, and Metu ready because Embiid smells blood. That’s 24 fouls. We should wear his ass out at some point. I am concerned with Buddy guarding Curry or Green. I’m concerned with Buddy guarding a toilet. They will probably torch him if he doesn’t torch them first. I believe we will win tomorrow. Not sure who matches up with Simmons, but if it’s Fox, he better deny the post or have amazing back side help. We don’t necessarily match up with Philly well either. It’ll be game of chess, so tell Walton to put down the legos.
*Premature STAMP IT
Yum, Green Curry .. but I digress.
The defensive matchups are concerning. I would love to see Hali guarding Simmons during 4th quarter. And I hope that is Curry the one to guard Fox but at some point I think it’s going to be Thybulle
Curry has been playing reduced minutes for some time.
We gonna eat ’em up
(Mike) Bratz?
hello
It’s pretty much that simple. I’ve been saying all year that I just look at Bagley almost like a 2nd round pick at this point. If he does something positive it’s like, “Hey, good for him!” but other than that I think it’s pretty obvious at this point he isn’t a part of the core or the future here. We are fully in Ben Mclemore territory at this point.
That really is a good way to put it… “Ben McLemore territory.”
Yeah I remember coming to this realization with Mclemore. I was so high on him coming out of the draft because the shooting stroke with the athleticism but at was about midway through year 3 where I just realized it wasn’t going to happen. I know Bagley has played a lot less minutes than Mclemore did early in his career but while there are flashes, you can just tell the BBIQ isn’t there to ever be anything more than a very limited player.
That is a bit of an over exaggeration. McLemore wasn’t good at anything… Bagley can indeed score. He just doesn’t score well enough to justify more minutes because of how bad his defense is.
He has scored in double digits in only 2 of his last 6 games, and one of those was at exactly 10 points.
Now, minutes are a big factor in this tiny sample size, but not the only one!
In sum, while much of his game is as I anticipated from the get-go, I really thought he would be a more accomplished scorer at this point in his career, even looking at the larger statistical picture.
3-10 when he plays more than 24 min.
9 -1 when he plays less than 24 min.
This needs to be purpled.
I’m sure a lot of people are experts at making things go purple.
Your condescending attitude when it pertains to your intelligence along with the horrible takes you’ve had on Bagley over the years make me puke
Don’t sugar coat it, man, say how you feel.
For comparison:
Kings + Kyle Guy:
0-0 when he plays more than 24 min.
12-11 when he plays less than 24 min.
Very good response showing how ridiculous that Bagley stat was that got so much unnecessary attention.
This. I was a total advocate of Bagley and giving him minutes to develop when the season started. 30+ and let’s see how it shakes out. The results are what they are through 23 games though…the Kings are clearly better with him in the reduced role. I don’t see how you just gift him minutes at this point for “development” sake. I think it sends a terrible message to the rest of the team about your desire to win and respecting the efforts and progress they have shown recently. Doesn’t mean I , the front office or actual players dislike or think Marvin has no potential…it’s just plainly obvious what gives the team the best chance to win. And for the next stretch of games, these players have earned the right to try and win.
Now if we get to mid March and this team is 18-25 or something, then sure develop away the last third of the season. But until then you still have to make sure you are providing a proper environment (ideally winning culture) to develop Fox and Hali, your two most important assets at this point.
I’m surprised at the response to this post because it’s when of those vacuum stats that are very misleading. The starting lineup with Bagley is performing well and if not Bagley where else are you going to get those 20 minutes. Walton is using Bagley really well. That 3-10 record in part is because Walton will use Bagley in garbage time on the few blowouts we’ve had so he got minutes in those situations which skews the stat. I’m not saying we shouldn’t expect more from a number 2 pick but he’s at least 6 or 7 on this roster so his minutes are appropriate.
Agreed as it pertains to the dynamic of Bagley getting more burn in big losses via garbage time. But I’m not sure that it changes the dynamic of him playing less in close games. It is proving difficult to have him on the floor during crunch time. And let’s be honest – this roster is not deep, and with Bjelica on ice it’s really no accomplishment that Bagley is getting his current allotment of minutes.
It just comes across as one of those trash Bagley posts supported by a questionable/meaningless stat. There is no doubt he is improving and working harder recognizing that even the most ardent Bagley supporters would like to see him farther along. With that said, you partially agreed with my response by acknowledging the weakness of the bench. Because of that, Bagley is an important piece right now because the significant part of the roster extends to at least 8 players and MB is certainly one of our top 8 players.
I’ve been screaming from the mountain top since game 3 to abandon traditional positioning and play our best lineup more. That lineup Fox, Buddy, Hali, Barnes, Holmes has certainly proven to be our best and most effective lineup. Give credit to Walton for strategically getting Bagley 20 minutes and recognizing that during crunch he’s not our best option.
Totally agree. This was my recent breakdown on Bagley:
Bagley is playing more team ball than I have ever seen him. He is rebounding well. He is not forcing nearly as many shots. He is getting better as a team defender and is making an effort as an individual defender. He is still well below average at both but I can see he is at least trying to improve. Watch as he is coming off the court for a timeout or sub, there is ALWAYS an assistant in his ear. I guarantee you this is defensive advice. I think he is on info-overload a bit. He has to think about it a little too much right now. I think we all need to remember he is learning on the fly against the best players in the world. He is listening and putting in the effort. He is still super young so I expect if he continues putting in the effort, he will progress.
Marvin and Luka = born two weeks apart
He’s plenty old enough to be way better than he is.
Really good post!!
Exactly correct. Oh my god, enough with Bagely and “he needs time to improve”. He’s had more than enough time. Time to move on. He is who he is. Get rid of him.
This is like some other athletic #2 picks. The Coke Machine. Beasley. Year after year people thought they just needed a chance. Bullshit.
And I do think Kings can make playoffs and are building because of Tyrese and Gentry actually installing an O.
Honstly, I think anyone is still holding out hope that Bagley “needs time to drastically improve” are wishful thinking at this point. I never rooted for Bagley to be a bust, but I haven’t seen significant improvement in 2.5 seasons to see him taking that next step. Could it still happen? Sure. But I’m more confident betting the under over the over at this point from what I’ve seen.
Yes. Chances are incredibly slim to none.
My ultimate point is….let somebody else invest in that dream.
I came at you a little snarky yesterday in regards to Bagley, but I’m genuinely curious what you’d like the Kings to do with him? He can’t have a whole lot of trade value at the moment and although he doesn’t offer a ton to this team (and even with that said, he’s still the 2nd best “big” on the roster) wouldn’t it just be best to let him ride out his rookie deal and evaluate him at next year’s deadline as to whether or not he’ll be in the long term plans?
if you’re asking me what I’d do…
I’ve already evaluated him. right now he’s taking up a valuable roster spot so I’d trade him and just say..
“It took some time for us to create the flexibility we need, and to get out from under the previous front office’s moves. We like the trade and we will continue to seek ways to improve.”
I’d cut my losses and blame Vlade as passive aggressively as I could say it.
Fair enough. I think he’s shown enough to keep his roster spot on this team (which is an incredibly low bar) and since I don’t think you’re getting anything more than a flier on another young underperforming player, I’d rather just ride his contract out. But agree to disagree.
Trade Buddy and for a package deal. We need an over Hali takes over at PG, let Fox attack all game. We need a solid starting PF that can shoot, provide space , and rebound. Barnes is tearing shit up. Keep him.
Bags an Buddy should move on wth their careers. A few other bench players to ride that pine unselfishly, show support, and be ready when your name is called.
Monte has to see this, we need another 2 guard and PF. ..Like deadas before we fucked out of another trade
*Buddy and Bags
I am worried that you (and others) are correct. One reason I hold out some hope is that he really hasn’t played much in 2.5 years.
My feeling is he could still improve and become a more complete player. I think as long as we are seeing some improvement he is at least on the right track and he might be worth the effort to develop but if he starts to flatline or stop working to get better….see ya.
There’s no doubt he can be a decent player. But I think many put high expectations and hold out hope only because he was drafted at “number 2.” If he was showing drastic improvement, I might think he could have a chance to be a very good player, maybe All-Star at some point, but I’m just not seeing it happening. And it also isn’t helping that statically the team just plays better and more as a team when he isn’t on the floor.
Sad but true. True but sad.
Was gonna reply to your early post that Hali is the one keeping Marvin from playing 4th quarter minutes, but I just gave you a rec – cause its spot on. I think Ben McLemore territory (while funny) is a little too premature. He came to the league with that AAU / lack of Defense / entitled mentality. He played in a zone at Duke (bad on Coach K for not forcing him to play man, but I digress). Coupled with that, he missed huge chunks of time in year 1, damn near all of season 2, all of training came this year (COVID), and full scrimmage practice this year with the wrist injury. Is he going to be Bam Adebayo? Probably not, but lets give him some slack and see what we have. I would not mind playing him over Hassan in early 4th quarter minutes. He just isn’t better than Holmes or Hali at this point to keep him on the floor at crunch time.
This is it, so much so that developing Bagley at all could become less and less important.
I’m starting to think Bagley won’t be on this team by the end of the season. I actually hope he is as I don’t think any of us think Whiteside is part of this team long term and unless Bagley can be traded for a long term replacement (which is probably unlikely), the Kings need to invest more time in to Bagley. He still has a lot of upside.
you could say that about any bad player in the NBA. What compels you to want to continue to invest in this one?
Hey, if GameStop can run, why not a GameStopper?
Is it too late to buy Haliburton stocks? I know they’re sky high right now.
On that note, probably should go find a Haliburton rookie card somewhere….
Sorry, I’ll clarify. Being that he’s actually healthy, I think they should ride out the rest of this season and then decide his fate in the offseason. I’m not a Bagley advocate but he’s shown good improvements on offense and he is a really good athlete. I think we can say that his value as an asset is probably the highest it’s been since his first season in the league and injuries aside, it’s probably not going down from where it’s at now.
This is a very good and balanced post. Certainly we should want more from the number 2 player in a draft but Bagley is improving and we need to at least give him this season. Also, something not said, the 20 minutes Bagley is giving the team right now are important given the weakness of the bench. The starting lineup with Bagley has a decent net rating and the lineup of Fox, Hali, Buddy, Barnes, Holmes has a plus 20 net rating. Beyond that, when you go to that bench, things get really bad. So right now Bagley’s minutes are really significant to the teams success. He’s certainly a better option than Robinson or Metu and really the only playable guys after our best lineup are Bagley and Whiteside and maybe short stints of Joseph.
No. This is not baseball. There is no minor league adjustment time. There is no learning to use a wood bat or hit a slider.
This is basketball, the one sport where one player can transform a team overnight.
Tyrese Haliburton is a good example of this.
Marvin Bagley is not.
Still relevant…
Kings fan: “It takes three years to develop.”
Tyrese Haliburton: “Hold my beer.”
Bagley has never played center in his life.
And I doubt that his father would be very happy about it.
There are simply too many lineups where Bagley is obviously guarding the other team’s center for people to keep insisting that he isn’t a center. I would guess that he’ll spend most of his career playing as and guarding power forwards, but the way people dig in their heels that he doesn’t play center just seems like a strange hill on which to die.
When Bagley is in, and neither Holmes or Whiteside is on the floor, who are you suggesting is playing center if not Marvin Bagley?
I agree with you, Marvin does need more time at the five, but Walton is still trying to win games now at the expense of the team’s long-term goals. The clown needs to go.
Does anyone remember when the last time Bagley played in the 4th quarter, and what the team’s record is when he does? Just genuinely curious.
Bagley ideal position is off the team. He has not improved, and still does not seem to conceive of any basketball set in which he is not focal point. hoping that we can move him for another high lottery pick that has trouble fitting in with their team, or vet on bad contract who is good compliment for holmes. kevin love?
“Yes, that’s right. We’d like to trade you our high lottery pick, who hasn’t panned out so far, for your future high lottery pick, who might become a key asset going forward. Hello? Hello?”
I read it as high lottery pick that hasn’t worked out. not a future high lottery pick. I could have read it wrong?
You read it correctly, Andy Sims didn’t
Why not just play him more? Giving his minutes away to Robinson and Whiteside just don’t make sense. He’s a 20/12 player per 40 minutes and, while he’s a negative on defense, so is just about every other player on the team. There is plenty of hate on this site for Whiteside and the hate on Bagley seems to be who he isn’t rather than who he is. Playing him less than 20 minutes per game makes no sense in getting the most out of an asset. If he’s a bust, better to know that with him playing 30-35 minutes per game rather than giving the extra minutes away to players who don’t figure long for this team.
You do know that if we’re using counting stats as a justification, Whiteside > Bagley, right?
I really think Walton and McNair are coming to a crossroads with Bagley. It’s clear that the team plays better basketball when he is not on the court, but he will also not improve unless he gets significant minutes.
Do the Kings play to win games, as the have recently done by giving Bagley reduced minutes, or do they give Bagley more minutes with an increased chance of losing?
You play to win the game – herm edwards
I would pay multiple dollars to hear McNair’s unvarnished opinion on this stuff. For all we know, McNair and Walton may be in 100% agreement on Bagley’s role and the overall minutes distribution. It’s not implausible that McNair’s plan is to slowly build around this core, and not risk their development in an attempt to secure a high draft pick. A lot of people talk about the relative importance of “culture.” What if they believe nothing will substantively change until this team prioritizes having a winning mentality? Like they’ll play Bagley enough minutes to continue is development, but his development will not come at the expense of winning winnable games.
Good point. I’m down with approach.
Exactly
Totally butt pulled but I think this is very plausible. I’m guessing Mcnair looked at the roster when he got here and decided to draft Hali and then just see where they’re at as the season moves forward. If they end up being a lot better than they expected, then maybe they are at a different phase of development than they thought. And not to ruin the good vibes or be that guy but I suspect Monte will still look to move some guys because this team will still be out of the playoffs.
I’d like to know who the Kings thought would be there for them at #12 had Hali not amazingly fallen to them. That might give us a better tell to McNair’s goals because I believe the Hali pick was 100% BPA and they had him ranked in the top 5 of the draft.
The bizarre thing is that every mock I saw had Haliburton going in the top 7. I was positive the Spurs were going to take him at 11, and when they didn’t, I was like, “please, Vlonty McDivac, don’t fuck this up.”
Winning. I go with winning.
Bagley should have stayed at Duke if he wanted to learn how to play basketball.
He isn’t just a negative on D. He has been neutral to negative on offense. ” passed up a bad shot for a good shot” Is a thought Marvin has never had, let alone “pass up a good shot for a great shot”. Also you really need a team player who knows their role with Hali and fox out there, otherwise they don’t improve.