Dyson Daniels’ swipe that ended the game?
Daniels (ATL) makes clean contact with the ball to dislodge it from Fox’s (SAC) possession and any contact with Fox’s hand on the ball is considered incidental.
As De’Aaron Fox said postgame, hand is part of the ball when it’s convenient.
As for Daniels stepping out of bounds? A play the Kings wanted to challenge before the game was declared final, but were ignored by the officiating crew?
Daniels (ATL) avoids stepping out of bounds prior to releasing the pass.
Both plays also come with linked video evidence, but don’t get excited. The videos included in these reports are nothing more than the TV shot of the play in live action. The report doesn’t show any other replay angles utilized to validate the calls. No slow motion. No real evidence. And while this particular game had my blood boiling, not just because of the final seconds but because of the officiating throughout, it serves to highlight a much bigger idea that has been rattling around in my brain for a while (and that we have enough days between games for me to actually write about):
It’s time to end the charade of these L2M reports.
L2M reports have been around since March of 2015 (much longer than I had remembered), and started with good intentions. They were meant to provide clarity and accountability. They were also meant to highlight that NBA refs get more calls correct than incorrect. That isn’t me opining, that was a stated purpose and is still listed on the site for the reports. And that purpose, above all else, has become the clear objective of the reports in recent years (now I am opining).
What is the impact of refs getting a game-defining call incorrect? Nothing. Even when a bad call is so painfully obvious that it does get acknowledged on the L2M report, nothing happens. The slighted team has no recourse. Game outcomes don’t change. Fans don’t even feel vindicated. Ok, so the refs admit a mistake, I’m not any less mad about them screwing up what was obvious to everyone else. Aside from this rant, we’ve pretty much stopped writing anything about L2M reports here at the Kings Herald.
The L2M report has become a joke. Nobody believes them as a source of truth. They provide cover for a squad of officials who are inconsistent from game to game, from crew to crew, and in many games are inconsistent from team to team. The L2M reports are nothing more than lipstick on a pig.
It’s time to end the L2M Report experiment.
I wish I could go to work every morning and email our staff with the list of mistakes I made yesterday, knowing nothing will be done to fix them, and I’m free to make them today as well.
Best Comment Of The Year Marty. lol. ????
Hah, truth there.
“Okay, gang, a couple of quick things. Yesterday I set the copier on fire while trying to simultaneously heat up an Eggo waffle and xerox my ass.
“Earlier this week, I paid creditors with large bags of pennies, which was pretty funny, but cost thirty thousand dollars in shipping, but I have learned my lesson. The shipper will be paid in nickels.
“Over the past few months, there has been some, shall we say, light embezzling that has resulted in substantial cash losses, mostly to internet poker sites.
“And lastly, when Chip pushed Monique down the steps the other day, my thorough examination of the evidence led me to the conclusion that his two-arm shove was incidental contact, and besides, his daddy is loaded.
“So congratulations! We are still throwing a perfect game, no mistakes, no need to apologize, and no chance of change toward improvement.
“Also, your holiday bonuses will be smaller this year, to the point of nonexistence. Internet poker folks gots ta eat.”
It’s a sham and a joke, just some window dressing, CYA for the league.
Does the NBA have a call tracker for the refs on the ones they get right and wrong? MLB has that for Umpires behind the plate. Basketball is hard to call because there is probably a foul on nearly every possession, but we know they won’t call them because the game would be so slow.
The officials are reviewed and graded on every single call of every single game. Only the L2M is made public though.
So only the when the whistle is blown? If someone gets punched in the face, like Domas, and the whistle isn’t blown, then the ref won’t be graded on that?
Also, those reviews should be made public.
As I understand it, the internal grading is the same as the L2M, so they grade both the calls and the non-calls.
They’ll never make them public.
Death, taxes, and Domas getting hit in the face/head with no foul call are the three certainties in my life.
Domas getting hit in the head continues beyond our deaths, tho.
I bet when us old suckers are all long gone and Domas is at a Home Town Buffet reaching for a dinner roll, some jackass will clobber him in the head with a forearm as he reaches for the same dinner roll.
The L2M is basically just a “whoopsies” at this point.
Yep
Greg is right. They mean absolutely nothing, change nothing, and only anger fans. They are the NBA’s version of enraging click bait. And to think, the NBA employs folks to do this after every game and it changes nothing. What an unfulfilling job.
Random thought, with AI making massive strides, will we ever see the human error aspect taken out of pro sports officiating. I’d imagine we are closer than we realize to having a dozen or so small cameras around the court and can instantly detect and call fouls, turnovers, travels, etc. Or would that just ruin the game?
I don’t follow baseball at all, but haven’t they tried something like that with called balls and strikes?
They have a computerized system in baseball that can call balls and strikes but they still use umps. I don’t pay enough attention to baseball to know all the details. But it’s stupid to use a human for such a simple system where there is an objective correct answer.
I think the issue for using ai for NBA calls is the combination of speed and subjectivity involved.
The issue that they have had with the computerized strike zone is that it – get ready – calls the zone as it was originally called (from the letters to the knee), and players do not like it one bit, as that is not the zone that has been universally called by plate umpires for decades. They are still road testing it in the minors, with appeals included. It is a very wonky system at this point, as the plate ump is directed via earpiece as to whether it is a ball or strike, and the appeal system leaves a lot to be desired.
The secondary issue is that once you plug this system in, you completely obsolete pitch framing, as well as the need for catchers to get low (the one knee approach). As baseball has tried to re-introduce base stealing to the game, if a catcher does not have to apply any effort to catching/framing the pitch, this will have an adverse impact on the efforts to add more base stealing.
So at the end of the day, the question becomes, does the ends justify the means? An average MLB baseball game probably has somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 pitches thrown. About half of those (150) wind up being left for the umpire to call a ball or a strike. 150 x a full slate of 15 games = 2,250 pitches. On any given day, there are probably 3-5 bad ball/strike calls that have a larger influence/impact on the game. So basically 1/5 of 1%. Probably not the type of numbers that would have you overhaul your game. Except…
With the advent of social media, that 1/5 of 1% becomes better than 90% of the conversation the next day. This is pure tail wagging the dog, but it is also a truth that MLB cannot simply ignore.
As Rik mentions below, there is something to be said for the human element. And when I look at the game the other night, I can go up and down the Kings roster and coaching staff and find larger impactors to the outcome of the game than the officiating crew. That said, no one entity sucks more enjoyment out of the game – win or lose – than bad officiating. And NBA officiating may be just about as bad as it gets when it comes to true professional sport officiating.
The NBA needs to overhaul its approach to how it oversees a game from an officiating perspective. The game has simply gotten to big and too fast for three officials to handle. A bare minimum of four officials, maybe five. Something that would lessen the need for replay, not increase it, as challenges really adversely impact game flow. To be clear, I’m nit suggesting getting rid of challenges. But if you can overhaul the approach to officiating on the court, it may bring a level of consistency and accuracy that would take a little of the onus off of the challenge system.
And I do think that it is by and large a system issue. There may be a few refs that should not be officiating at the NBA level, but I really think that it is more of a system problem than a people problem.
Apologies for the long form. I had a second cup of coffee this morning.
While we’re at it, can we please get rid of star calls, calls that favor teams with stars on them and Harden/Luka fouls? Star calls have been screwing up the game for decades.
I’m sure this exists, but I’d have to think you could fairly easily prove star calls statistically with fouls divided by usage, fouls per drive, fouls with x players within y proximity, fouls per paint shot, fouls called on the perimeter, etc.
Guessing the NBA believes star calls actually help the game (and they probably do as far as revenue goes) but if you weren’t a fan of the Lakers/Celtics/Bulls/Warriors at specific points in time, those calls stink.
Where do we draw the line, then?
To err is human. Mistakes are part of sports and help make it exciting. Players are far from perfect, but refs should be, or very close to it? Why, exactly? Is their task so much easier than the task of the players?
As I wrote a few weeks ago; if the league and fans were interested in fair officiating, they would invest much more money into it, not protect star players, not accept the blatant foul-baiting and crying and bitching about calls, stay far away from gambling, protect the integrity of the game and the competitive nature of the sport.
Instead, pro sports is an entertainment industry and rules are changed to make the game more exciting, to keep star players on the floor, to let teams get away with their cheating (deflategate, Astros etc.).
And at the same time we are screaming that it shouldn’t be about the referees, but about the players and our viewing pleasure?
This is the sports atmosphere that we are demanding and (keep) consuming and help growing and prepetuate. But we are paying for it, so we are allowed to complain about it, I guess.
If you didn’t like reading this for the last two minutes, send me a report.
I don’t sweat an error here or there but they should be CONSISTENT. I think most fans are reasonable and accept it if the calls are consistent and they get a high percentage of the basic, obvious calls correct.
There can’t be no calls for Sabonis getting punched in the face and then calling a touch foul for Gobert.
Again; as consistent as the average NBA player? Or are they held to a higher standard? If so, are they compensated accordingly? You rarely see a player play the full 48 minutes, because they are bound to get tired and make mistakes. But refs are supposed to do so and stay completely focused and consistent throughout?
Has anyone here refereed basketball games in an organized league? I have, a long time ago, and it’s damn hard. And with the speed and physicality of the NBA? Even that much harder.
I think that adding a 4th ref might help. Less movement by the refs, better angles, etc. Do you think that would help at all?
I think it should. Eight eyes see more than six, right?
I know it’s a difficult job. By the nature of the rules and the speed and athleticism of the players it will be difficult.
But that is the job. Again, I don’t expect perfection, I know there will be errors.
All I ask is be consistent. If they are calling it tight or letting them play physically call it equally for both teams.
Seeing Fox get hacked obviously for a no call and the very next play call a foul for Harden when he causes all of the contact does not work for me.
Bad analogy. It is a different level of precision required. If a player shoots 50% he will be in the HOF, if a ref is 50% on his calls there will be riots.
“Has anyone here refereed basketball games in an organized league? I have, a long time ago–”
LET ME STOP YOU RIGHT THERE
It didn’t call “glass.”
But it was wet!!!
It’s automatic.
Just get rid of the reports. They’re never going to go back and replay the time, whether it’s 2 minutes, 30 seconds, etc., so why bother?
What I’d also like to see is that nobody is allowed to talk to the refs about they’re officiating/calls except the coach or team captain and only during an official timout. T up the complainers who don’t follow this. If a Green or Doncic can’t do this and needs to be ejected 5 minutes into the game, so be it. Will this idea ever happen? Not likely!
In field hockey and IIRC rugby this rule is enforced ruthlessly and it really is so good to see.
I think they do this in tennis as well, where the players can be punished for excessively grouching/complaining to the ump and line people.
The complaining definitely makes the games less enjoyable to watch. Refs need to suck it up and give out some Techs, or the complaining will continue to happen every game.
I do get frustrated when Fox was called for a technical the other night when guys like Doncic and Green yell all night and nothing happens. You tell me the refs can’t do better in this area? Go figure.
One of the hardest calls for refs in sports is the charge vs blocking call. It is open to so much ambiguity, combined with world class athletes moving full speed makes it almost always an interpretation call. Even on reviews it is usually not cut and dry.
Maybe the rule is flawed and needs adjusting?
These reports were a joke and useless when they were started years ago and nothing has changed . Actually, instead of helping officials makes their jobs even more impossible .
What’s the point of even watching these games when they seem so clearly rigged?
Trying to figure out why the NBA would rig a game so that the Atlanta Hawks beat the Sacramento Kings.
Hanlon’s razor. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
The game isn’t rigged, that crew just had a stupid night.
Agreed. NBA officiating is not fixed, but it sure needs to be.
These needs to be on a shirt.
I saw the trash can full of cash sitting outside the back door as the referees were leaving.
It’s just a joke. The only time the referees ever took responsibility for their bad game was when they apologized to the Lakers and tweeted about sleepless nights. How embarrassing and cringy is that for the league…
The NBA has had an officiating problem since the 90s. All their efforts to fix it (two-minute report, no-charge zone, challenges, replay, etc.) have been marginal at-best. If all the other basketball leagues in the world had problems at this level, you could say it’s an inherent problem with the sport, but I don’t believe this is the case. Sorry in advance for the long post, but I think are two big problems with the NBA:
First, there is a real lack of clarity on the rules. It doesn’t seem like anyone (other than the refs kinda, I suppose?) knows the exact rules and everything seems up to interpretation. When you have, on any given call, announcers, refs, fans, coaches, and players all disagreeing on what the outcome of a call should be, that’s a big problem for the league. This happens on a daily basis. This problem does not exist in football, a sport where the rules are infinitely more complex than basketball. In the NFL, the officials, announcers, and fans may quibble occasionally about specific calls (particularly PI) but, by and large, read from the same book.
During NFL challenges/replays, you have an expert come on the broadcast explain the call and rules, and the vast majority of the time get it exactly right on what the ruling ends up being. The NBA, I think, only does that in the playoffs with Steve Javie and he often disagrees on the ruling. Announcers both nationally, and especially locally, do not agree on calls. You could have announcers on one team broadcast saying the opposite of what announcers on the other team broadcast say. Even on the same broadcast, how many times would Mark Jackson and JVG argue about officiating? Constantly. This is very bad for the sport. It’s no wonder that there is mass disagreement and fanbases hate officials.
Second, the NBA, seemingly at every level, refuses to acknowledge the officiating problem, or at least how deep it goes. They obviously know there’s a problem which is why they roll out fixes in the first place, but they are half-baked attempts to appease everyone, which don’t address any root causes. The only time I recall legitimate attempts to overhaul things was post Donaghy-scandal, where it got better for a while, but eventually regressed back. Even that, though, had a heavy dose of cover-up.
Their focus should be consistency, clarity, communication, and education of officials, players, coaches, fans, and announcers. But instead, because of their refusal to admit and fix the problems, the NBA instead focuses on punishing coaches and players whenever they comment on the officiating, and gaslighting the fans that obviously bad officiating is really great. Which only makes the problem worse.
I am sure there are also a dozen other different ways things can be improved with rules adjustments and enhancing replay, but if the league is not operating in good faith on this issue to begin with, and everyone is still unclear, then what’s the point?
I don’t follow the NFL as closely as the NBA, but I feel like also among NFL fans there is a lot of discussion on some rules and whether they are called consistently and complaining about the officiating.
Yeah there’s always arguments among fans around PI and recently around newer rules on protecting the QB from late hits. But I feel like those discussions and disagreements are healthier and don’t extend to announcers, coaches, and other experts as much as they do in the NBA
There’s probably also something to be said for economy of scale. The Niners – Seahawks game saw a total of 116 offensive plays. Add another 16 for special teams and you’re at 132 plays for a game that takes over three hours. The Kings – Hawks game was played in about 2 and a half hours, and I believe that there were over 200 possessions.
Good point. Also the fact of 272 NFL vs 1,230 NBA games per regular season.
The definition of tackle has changed dramatically since I played. There have been 3 separate definitions of a “catch” in the last 10 years. The NFL is the absolute worst at defining fouls/rules.
IMO, the NBA rules are actually quite clear, it’s just that the refs are wildly inconsistent in their implementation of those rules and NBA refs are way more likely to grant “star” player treatment. I think with the smaller playing field and the number of cameras close to the action, the mistakes by refs are made very clear and that ends up being even more frustrating when they get the call wrong (or rule differently than an earlier instance of the same play).
Agree with points about start player treatment and smaller playing field. But I disagree about the NFL. I think they are actually very good with the precision of their rules, and then informing / training officials, and then disseminating this information to coaches, players, and broadcasters. Of course, it makes it easier when there a fewer games and no local coverages. All their broadcast partners are national. But there’s no question they do a better job of this than the NBA.
It’s true that they change and redefine the rules very frequently, and their changes often affect the game very significantly. That’s a separate question than poor officiating, though. I think it’s a testament to their organization that they can make such frequent, significant changes and still have cleanly officiated games, for the most part.
Atlanta and every other NBA team’s fan say the same thing about the referees. Every NBA player complains to the referees during the games and after the games. If the Kings won this game the referees would not be mentioned until the next tip off.
In this short season we have already had recaps where we discussed the Kings overcoming poor officiating in wins. I disagree with the assessment that we only discuss officiating after losses.
And, as I said in the article:
I wrote about this today because we have time and it relates to the last game.
Referees are complained about consistently. There have been many recaps, practically every one after a loss, that talk about the referees impacting the Kings. They also impact the other team. The entire NBA which is the fans, owners, players, and hot dog vendors complain about the referees. It is great drama for the show and in content about the games and teams.
As far as how the referees impact the Kings it is the same as all of the other teams.
This is usually when someone chimes in saying the entire destiny of the Kings franchise was ruined by the referees in some game against the Lakers twenty years ago.
I understand and appreciate your commentary on the topic. I am simply tired of the constant excuse.
I get that. The chatter about refs is tiresome.
I will point out that in a one point game though a really bad call or two is the difference between a win and a loss.
And the Kings missed the playoffs by one game last year. How they played is the biggest factor, of course, but the refs can and do affect the outcomes.
Referees certainly can and do impact the outcome of a game. Good teams complain about the referees while piling up wins in the play offs.
Losing by one point to the Atlanta Hawks has more to do with our roster than a referee.
My point is however you get to that point and are in a close game (roster issues, off night, coaching mistakes, etc.) you should not have to fight the opponents and the refs.
There will be close games even against inferior opponents.
In the ATL game there were some blatant missed calls, the worst IMO was Fox getting literally tackled right at the feet of the ref and nothing. Interesting if you go to Fox’s attempts on NBA.com they cut that clip off right before the tackle. SUS
The other one that stood out to me in that game was the calling of moving screens, it was very inconsistent. Or Trae Young pushing off on every single dribble, arm extended.
My point is the Atlanta players, coaching staff, and fans think that referees killed them as well.
Bad calls happen often and not only to one team.
I know that, duh, every fan, team and player thinks the ref hates them however ATL won so they were not killed by calls.
And in that particular game there were some iffy non calls that benefitted ATL.
Atlanta thinks the game was almost stolen from them by the referees.
Increase number of challenges. I think in Tennis you get 3 per set. Not sure about other sports. Perhaps 4 challenges, 2 max per half. Yes it will slow the game down even more but as you say these are flawed humans (and maybe on the take :D)
I don’t really care about this Last 2 minutes thing. What I do care about is the status of all our injured players. I have not seen one article that mentions injuries to 3 of our best players and I don’t understand why.
I assume you probably threw it into another article but I really don’t want to read every article the last two weeks to see how long Domas, Monk or Demar would be out, or even what is the matter with them. I would think the status of these 3 superstars would warrant their own article. Apparently not.
Check the pregame and post-game write ups.
We are an independent website run by people who all have other jobs and families. This site is a labor of love. We work hard to ensure there is a preview, a recap, and an open thread (or two) for every game. We also try to get articles up on non-game days, as well as extra articles whenever significant news happens. We do our best.
The injuries have been discussed in game previews. DeMar and Domas have been game-by-game decisions, not significant injuries with announcements or timelines given. If they had been announced as being out for a week, or two, or any specific timeframe, we probably would have given those announcements a dedicated article. But we don’t always have time.
While I appreciate you wanting us to be your one-stop shop for all things Kings, we will sometimes have to defer to the full-time reporters who are on the ground and earning a regular salary to cover every minor update. There are lots of good ones covering the Kings, many of whom we are friends with, and they will have those updates. James Ham, Sean Cunningham, Brenden Nunes, Matt George, Frank Cartoscelli, even Deuce and Mo. Apologies if I forgot any of our friends, that was off the top of my head.
Based on most recent reports, it seems likely that Domas, DeMar, and maybe even Monk will be back for Friday’s game. We’ll know more tomorrow, when we hear it from one of those reporters.
Youngman!
You and your fellow writers here contribute a solid opinion and put a ton of work into this.
Thank you!
Mason Canderson’d
The officiating has officially damaged my basketball fandom… I avoid the game thread now because I know I’ll just be whining about the officials.
Complaining about the referees. Complaining about opposing players talking to the referees while supporting Kings players arguing with officials.
Let me start by applauding this website and community – this is fun stuff! Thank you, Greg, Akis, and the rest of the TKH staff along with our beloved community of commenters.
This article is about the Two Minute Report. We can argue over whether 2 (there were only two officials for the NBA games when I started watching around 6 decades ago – of course there was also one Coach, who sometimes was a Player and Coach, not 7 with a development staff of 4), 3, or 4 zebras on the court, but that is a different subject. And one I would like us all to revisit sometime as I believe officiating and officials have changed this season and not for the better.
I agree with Greg – presently the TMR is more an irritant than salve. It is most always the case. For example: in regards to Dyson Daniels foul and foot fault – a wry smile is earned by Atlanta and a scowl and head shake by Sacramento. Nothing else gained or lost. Next.
At it’s best, it provides public relief to the officiating crew whom I believe (really, you have to, IMO) try their best as a professional group to do their best. At their worst, the TMR is a thorn in the side of fans, players, coaches and the NBA Referees Association.
The bad, in my opinion, far outweighs the good here. It is ammunition for discord (e.g. “Last season, if you look at the TMR, Sacramento was screwed out of more games than any other team!”) and rather than placate the losing side that indeed, the game was called correctly, we dismiss this printed message and scoff at it. Maybe they need fact checkers (sorry, not sorry, I couldn’t resist).
The NBA dug a hole by addressing their credibility (2002, Game 6 WCF never forget!) and though that is commendable, they are digging a deeper hole with the Two Minute Report.
I would venture to guess, that should the NBA announce that they will no longer manufacture the TMR, the rumble of grumbles from media, teams and fans would be broad, but the cheers from their own officials will drown out that murmur.
Present the two minute report to one hundred people that either part of the Hawks organization or are Hawks fans.
How many will agree with the report?
How many will create other fouls against the Kings that were not called in the last two minutes?
The two minute report is the NBA transparently looking at game calls and saying how they feel about them. We didn’t agree with the calls in real time and still don’t agree with the calls they support in the two minute report. It does show that the NBA and the referees agree on the 99.9999964878357142% percent of the calls made in the final two minutes of the game.
It’s a closely related subject, and we are under no obligation to stay on topic. Show me the TKH rulebook, ref. 🙂
Like I wrote above, the NBA is more and more an entertainment industry instead of a sport. And entertainment is also about content creating. And the L2M report creates content. And even more than that, social media has learned us that people love to argue and complain. So perhaps the L2M report is doing exactly what it is supposed to do, behind the facade?
My attempt was to explain my response as to stay on subject – I have no aspirations to herd or contain the spirit, content or voice of TKH in any shape or form. My prelude on that comment exalted the site and the community. As much of a fan I am of the Sacramento Kings, I wouldn’t be half that interested without this wonderful website to gaze at and graze at. I will hope to explain my intent more clearly in the future. I will likely fail and give my apologies now; please take them in the manner in which they are intended. And as always, Rulebooks can’t and needn’t apply.
Controversy may be the result, but I think the opposite was the purpose of the TMR.
At the rate we’re going, maybe the ref crews should be introduced at the beginning of games as a part of the opposing team.
Good news regarding DeRozan.
https://bsky.app/profile/chrisbhaynes.bsky.social/post/3lbi4g4k3f22z
Game is obviously rigged. The NBA doesn’t really have any honest standards or principles. In fact it’s run much like the world wrestling Federation. larger markets make more money and they have bigger media contracts. Hence smaller markets will always be stepped on especially when they don’t have all stars or a promising rookie that can make a lot of money for advertising. It’s not easy to follow the dollar and see how this trickles down to rigging the game
To infer that it is rigged is to infer that the NBA wanted to Atlanta to win that game. Failing to understand why that would be the case.
Wemby to San Antonio. How does that happen in a rigged system? How does Giannis wind up in Milawaukee in a rigged system? How do the Spurs, Nuggets, Bucks, Raptors, Cavaliers all win titles over the past 20 years?
The game is obviously poorly officiated. That is a few tin foil hats different than rigged, in my humble opinion.
And 1 – I will agree with anyone that it is an unlevel playing field, and that big market teams are in a better position to throw money around to overcome mistakes. That said, it is not a panacea, as the Kinicks showed for a long time. But the same thing exists in major league baseball. The hard cap in the NFL has kept the big market teams from being more dominant, and it will be interesting to see how the new CBA impacts teams. Again, this is a far cry from “rigged.”
I would not say rigged either.
The biggest issues I see with officiating are the inconsistent star treatment calls, when refs take over games, and the personal vendettas certain refs have against certain players or teams. I’m not even talking about the Kings or their players, it is league wide.
Two who come to mind are Scott Foster and Tony Brothers.
Badge Legend