The Athletics’ Sam Amick and Shams Charania broke the news on Wednesday, and the Sacramento Kings made it official on Thursday morning: Monte McNair is the new general manager of the Sacramento Kings.
The Kings detailed McNair’s new role with the organization, including quotes from both McNair and Ranadive in the press release:
The Sacramento Kings announced today that the team has hired Monte McNair as General Manager. In this role, McNair will be responsible for all decisions made in the Kings basketball operations department and serve as the team’s top basketball executive reporting to the owner and chairman. Per team policy, terms of the deal were not disclosed.
Monte is one of the NBA’s top basketball minds who has played an instrumental role in building several winning teams in Houston, said Kings Owner and Chairman Vivek Ranadive. I am excited to bring his extensive experience and vision onboard to lead our basketball operations department, and it is my pleasure to welcome Monte and his family to Sacramento.
I am thrilled to join the Kings organization and honored to shape the franchise’s bright future for the team’s loyal fans, said McNair. I would like to thank Vivek for this opportunity and look forward to becoming a part of the Sacramento community.
The good news is that the King spelled out McNair’s role clearly: He will operate as the head of basketball operations.
The concerning second shoe to drop after the McNair announcement was the proceeding revelation that Joe Dumars is staying with the Kings in a new long-term role. Dumars will act as the Kings’ Chief Strategy Officer. The Kings also described his role in greater detail via a press release Thursday morning:
The Sacramento Kings announced today that Joe Dumars has been named Chief Strategy Officer. In this new role, he will continue to report to the owner and chairman, and help drive strategy across the organization’s entire portfolio of activities, including business, basketball, new ventures, entertainment and real estate. Per team policy, terms of the deal were not disclosed.
The big detail to note in Dumars’ new position is that he will be reporting to Vivek Ranadive, and not Monte McNair. If Dumars’ role was purely business (it’s at least partly business) this would be less of a concern, but his job description states that he will “help drive strategy across the organization’s entire portfolio” that includes basketball, and if he’s reporting to Ranadive instead of McNair, it’s easy to see where this can go wrong considering Vivek’s history of advisor meddling.
Dumars’ new role also raises questions about the process that landed McNair in Sacramento. Several candidates dropped out well before the decision was made, and we already know that there was confusion about how much power Dumars would have long-term throughout the hiring process. Did his involvement scare candidates away? According to Sam Amick speaking with Carmichael Dave this morning, the answer is yes.
Amick: “There were (GM) candidates that, when they heard Joe Dumars was involved in the process, said ‘no thank you’…….”
— Carmichael Dave (@CarmichaelDave) September 17, 2020
I expect we’ll continue to learn new details about the process, why candidates dropped out, and how much power Dumars and McNair will have in the coming days. For now, the Kings have hired new, experienced basketball ops leadership in Monte McNair, and that’s a great development. Hopefully everyone else stays out of his way.
Dumars as “Chief Strategy Officer.” The Kings can’t get out of their own fucking way.
Vivek found himself his new bride AND new mistress at the same time.
That threesome thread from the previous article now has a much deeper meaning.
What is one thing bad thing Dumars has done since he’s been here? He’s basically acted in good faith within his position the entire time.
See my reply to you above. It has nothing to do with Dumars the person, it’s Dumars the role.
And? If Monte has the final say, thats all that matters.
he doesn’t. Dumars answers to Vivek
For his role, yes. But what does that have to do with making the final basketball decisons? Dumars wont be the one making picks and trades, signing guys, etc..
Vivek never interfered with Vlade’s decisions.
You don’t actually believe that last sentence, do you?
Vivek wanted Buddy and Vlade wants Bogi. Wonder who’s idea was it to draft Bagley over Luka.
im pretty sure Bagley was all Vlade. Luka is 100% Vivek type of player
Then why did Vlade get an extension from Vivek AFTER he picked Bagley?
Bagely had a good rookie year, and the team was looking up after 39 wins. Not that hard to get why
So that gets Vlade an extension but gets the coach fired? Doesn’t make sense.
It doesn’t, but the nonsensical moves are what make them the Kangz.
The team was in a decent place when he got the extension…but most importantly, it was another ex-athlete that Vivek could hang around with.
Haha, “Vivek never interfered with Vlade’s decisions”.
Remember when Vivek said on the sidelines to Buddy when he was a Pelican that “We are going to get you.” A few months later Vlade traded for Hield.
Some fans take the talking points as gospel even when they are almost certainly false.
Well said.
It is my opinion that if it were up to Vivek, we would have Drafted Luka. So yes, Vlade made 100% of the basketball decisions.
The fact that there is even a modicum of discussion/confusion over this fortifies the point. And the confusion is set to continue under RanaDumMcNair.
Vivek definitely played a major role in Vlade’s 1st season (which is when the Philly trade occurred).
I think Vlade earned his complete control over time. To start it was not that way. Maybe, it’s more accurate to say that Vivek earned his own demotion (Sauce Castillo, Malone firing, Karl, philly trade, demarcus/buddy trade. After so many consecutive nightmarish moves that were mocked in the media and linked to him… he realized I suck at this and gave complete control to Vlade.
?
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I think that’s probably correct. The sad part is that I think Vlade had complete control by the 2018 draft & I think Vivek would’ve probably taken Luka if he was still in control.
Funny that Vivek would outright threaten him like that.
It appears to be how Vivek has the org. chart structured which is where the frustration is. On the basketball operations it would appear that both McNair and Dumars overlap on input to Vivek, but might not report to each other. Thus, one side gets to potentially cut the other out allowing Vivek to meddle should he choose to. The whole “special advisor to the GM” debacle again….for the third time.
Well put.
With that kind of org structure I wonder how Vivek became a billionaire.
It’s cut throat. Most billionaires are cut throat.
Vivek is not a billionaire.
He has never been on any credible Billionaire lists because he isn’t and estimated at about 375 million !
Based on an article in The Athletic, it seems like his net worth is roughly $700M.
The press release said that (among other things) Dumars will devise basketball strategy (whatever that means). It could create a chaotic situation (which has hurt the Kings in the past).
“The press release said that (among other things) Dumars will devise basketball strategy (whatever that means).”
Yikes! Not good.
“Vivek never interfered with Vlade’s decisions.”
Hopefully that happens. If Leaky Luke isn’t gone before the draft then we know who’s really driving this sh*t.
This type of structure is all the latest rage in corporations – particularly in tech and healthcare. It’s called a “Matrix” organization. It’s designed to have people reporting in multiple directions – either one person reporting to multiple bosses, or competing groups reporting to the same boss.
It’s actually DESIGNED to generate friction. The latest consultant-vomit on this is that it “fosters competition amongst teams – generating innovative ideas from confrontation that might not be otherwise produced”.
I work in one of these types of organizations right now, and all I can say is that it instead breeds contempt, backstabbing, political gamesmanship, and total and complete chaos.
Ladies and Gentlemen – your Sacramento Kings! Where the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Vivek’s jock-sniffing continues…
Dumars is on board…
Same Kings bullshit, same Kings bat channel.
Which is unfortunate. The process, not McNair, is the issue here to be clear.
Ay ay ay.
But the process led to McNair? Who is extremely qualified for the job
It did.
it also led to the retention of an advisor in charge of basketball strategy that doesn’t report to that qualified person.
this isn’t hard. This all may work out, no one has a crystal ball. But the point is we have seen this movie play out repeatedly with Vivek in charge.
the concern is valid at this point in time. We shall see if it works … this time.
He’s not “in charge” of basketball stretegy. He’s and advisor on it. The final decision maker is Monte
I think the question is, how is this any different than Vivek/Mullin/PDA, or Vivek/Dumars/Divac? I mean, even if the organization says that McNair has the final say, given the history of this ownership, can you really take them at their word?
I sure hope for the best, and I am encouraged by the hiring of McNair. But benefit of the doubt went out the window a long time ago for this clown show of an organization.
The difference I think is that we finally has a Component, respected GM. I have never had a problem with Dumars being involved. He built a championship roster. And he has acted in good faith within his role. I don’t think Dumars is the kind of guy to try and go around Monte, he will be the kind of guy to work with him in a constructive way
So, they knew that they hired incompetent GMs in the past at the time of the respective hires? With all due respect, McNair is no different today than PDA was the day they hired him – maybe a little more on the resumé, but that’s it, at most.
The “difference” does not eradicate what this organization has done over the past seven years. It’s up to them to prove it, as benefit of the doubt has been exhausted.
He played football at Princeton and at least at first glance seems more like someone to work directly with coaches and players rather than dictating from above. This is thin info but he doesn’t seem to be the full-on egghead that PDA was
My investigative research tells me that unlike Pete D, McNair does not have a very punchable face.
Remember when we were told Vlade is in charge only to be later told Joerger wasn’t really Vlade’s hire when Vlade scooped up Walton?
good times!
I think the question is, how is this any different than Vivek/Mullin/PDA, or Vivek/Dumars/Divac?
Its scary how similar that structure is: owner/jock/analytics guy 2.0.
The answer is inherent to your question. Vivek is the commonality, yes, but the difference is the other two people. Are you saying Mullin/PDA, Vlade/PDA, and/or Dumars/Vlade is the same as Mcnair/Dumars just because of Vivek? I’ll be honest, the potential is there and you and others are correct in thinking such things could happen because obviously it’s happened before. In my opionion maaaaaan, the other side of potential is more likely. Only one of those people is the same in those triumvirates. Of course, Vivek is the owner and, ultimately, he “makes” all the decisions. However, allowing those decisions is probably a better word despite our jaded perspectives that have been forged over decades and influenced by multiple owners. However, if we’re excited about Mcnair, why would we not be excited about Dumars? Mcnair, presumably, signed off on the job knowing Dumars would be the CSO (I actually would venture to guess Mcnair took the job, in part, knowing he could have Dumars as a mentor of sorts, but that’s purely speculative). In my estimation, those two are stronger than any of the aforementioned executives and, to me, that’s why this is different. Time will tell. Vivek is Vivek, yes. Yet, Mcnair and Dumars are on different planets from any FO execs hired previously. I’m excited.
La vie en rose baby, purpler pastures are ahead and my cowbells are ready to let fandom ring.
Hope you are correct but not likely and no interest in drinking this kool-aid !
It’s 2020 bro, the Kings are my source of optimism!
I agree! I think that Vivek has come to trust Dumars, so he wanted to keep him around. I do see signs of progress here. I think Vivek is viewing Dumars in an executive strategy role more like what Jerry West did when he was with the Warriors. This is different than what West is doing now with the Clippers where he reports to Lawrence Frank.
Dumars made it clear that he is not interested in doing the job of a GM. Time will tell if Vivek can stay out of McNair’s way, but I do not think Dumars’ presence is necessarily a bad thing.
This is all highly accurate.
The problem here is, besides the obvious fact that Dumars reports directly to Vivek, is that the game has passed Dumars by. He’s just not someone to rely upon to advise on basketball strategy in 2020 and beyond.
I mean, I hope you’re right. But stating it with certainty is pretty silly.
Having Dumars outside the structure of basketball operations opens the door to tomfoolery in an organization where there has been a steady dose of during the entire Kings playoff drought.
It’s not that it will happen. It’s that it can happen.
I understand the legitimate cause for concerns given what we have seen in the past. And there are some red flags here. But I am going to chose to be optimistic until given a more concrete reason otherwise.
Dumars title does mention basketball strategy, but it also mentions “business, basketball, new ventures, entertainment and real estate” – that’s very broad and could be as simple as Dumars is in a PR / advisor role as someone smart whose been around the game for awhile. Though, fair to point out, how much does he actually know about real estate and new ventures – so could be a red flag.
However, McNair is also not a mediocre candidate where Sacramento was his only opportunity. He is not a big talker a la Brandon Williams who talked his way into Sacramento and is seizing his one chance. He’s a very thoughtful and qualified candidate who like Gupta, would likely have had other opportunities in the future. He’s an Ivy league CS major who has worked his way up in the FO of one of the most successful teams of the last 14 years and who has a fantastic FO tree.
That isn’t to say our opportunity is perfect or has no red flags – almost any lottery team will be offering an imperfect situations. However, I don’t think that McNair would risk his career on an unstable opportunity with a structure that posed significant risk to his ability to conduct his job.
Everyone is capable of making bad career decisions. But just because Joe Dumars is still here doesn’t make this decision bad. Its up to Monte to build a winner, and he’ll have every opportunity to do that.
I think this is a valid and important point. Would McNair have walked from his current role (which by the sounds of things might have been a little uncertain… so there is that) to take a role where he wasn’t going to be in control? I’d think with his resume he would have had a discussion about that, and he is obviously ok with this org chart, or he would not take this job.
Agreed – if this was some junior candidate, TV analyst, or retread than perhaps they would accept any structure just for the opportunity and money.
However, McNair isn’t in that situation, so I like to believe he wouldn’t step into a poorly structured situation out of desperation.
I mean, he did take a job with the Kings.
The corollary to the old Groucho Marx “I don’t care to belong to any club that would have me as a member.”
As Kings fans, we want a GM with great judgement, so we don’t want any GM who would accept the opportunity to be our GM.
I think the basis of your thesis is incorrect – if McNair doesn’t work out here, I’m not sure it’s a career ruiner. It wasn’t for Malone, won’t be for Joerger, wasn’t even for Pete D.
I don’t doubt McNair is optimistic that this isn’t the “same old Kings”, but I don’t think anyone will know that for sure until we’re a few seasons in.
Seriously, WTF is this? Monte McNair is a great hire. Then Vivek hires Dumars as “Chief Strategy Officer” (an invented position if there ever was one) to oversee and advise on… a bit of everything? Yeah, not likely. Dumars doesn’t know jack about business and real estate (at least no more than the average mildly informed citizen). He’s a basketball guy, meaning he will be focusing on basketball, and reporting directly to Vivek instead of Monte, who was SUPPOSED to be “the guy” in charge of all basketball ops. Way to take what could have been a great, exciting hire, and screw it up by hiring the newest official back-stabber at the same time. I wish Monte McNair the best of luck. He should invest in body armor and a rear-view camera.
Yeah, I think this idea that Dumars is helping on other things outside of basketball is probably misdirection.
Can anyone point me to one one decision that Dumars convinced Vivek to make that has led us in a bad direction? I mean seriously! The only one that we can possibly know of is convincing Vivek to push Vlade out? Which is what EVERYONE wanted! As far as we know, he has acted in good faith within his role. And help lead a process to find a competent GM.
I think the Vlade tenure alone is enough to prove that Vivek does not meddle in basketball decision making anymore. This team is 100% Vlade’s creation.
Stop being so reactionary to every bit of news. Let it play out. McNair is a very good hire. Thats the story here.
For me it has nothing to do with Dumars the person, it’s the same bullshit of having two people at the top who report independently to Vivek. It creates workplace competition and back-stabbing. This has been the trend of Vivek’s ownership style and it’s blown up in the Kings faces twice already.
The Warriors, Clippers have similar management structures. Not saying we are them but it can work. It all depends on Monte
The Warriors and Clippers have ownership that are willing to invest vast sums of money into basketball operations, while the Kings have historically had one of the most under-resourced front offices in the league.
Dumars’ salary – no matter the PR spin – is money that should be allocated to Monte McNair’s front office budget. I’d much rather McNair have whatever Dumars is getting paid to invest into scouting, analytics, trainers, etc.
You’re right, it all depends on Monte, but more significantly, it all depends on Vivek to give him the best opportunity to succeed.
I agree with this thinking. I just don’t think we’re doomed because it is set up this way. Theres reason for hope
The difference between the Kings and the other franchises is Vivek is the owner.
To me it all depends on Vivek not Monte – if Vivek can refrain from interfering and creating organizational dysfuntion then Monte will have a chance to right the ship
He refrained during the entire Vlade tenure. He’s shown he can do that.
Not even Grant pushed this level of fairy tail falsity.
Even he disclosed that Joerger wasn’t really Vlade’s hire.
But when did Grant say this? I would bet it was after Dave got fired, b/c you know, that’s how Grant rolls.
You bet correctly.
When the Kings win as much as the Warriors and Clippers do, I will give Vivek the benefit of the doubt.
The Warriors hadn’t won anything in 35 years when they hired West.
You’re right. And I stand by my statement. Until the Kings prove this works for them, I will be highly skeptical, especially since Vivek has more or less done this exact same thing (hire an advisor to unofficially compete with the GM for his ear) multiple times, with disastrous results.
I think given the mess with Mullins-PD-Malone and then Divac-PD-Karl there is a reason for very legitimate concern (that you have raised).
I will also point out that Dumars’ role / this set up is virtually identical to what Jerry West had with the Warriors and is probably the path Vivek is at least trying to copy.
Now, it maybe that West is a very special NBA talent and the Warriors success had less to do with having an advisor and more to do with West’s uncanny ability. But I would imagine this is what Vivek is trying to replicate.
The point cannot be emphasized enough: Joe Dumars is very much NOT Jerry West.
Fair, but two points:
1 – Dumars is not Jerry West
2 – Dumars role is not an anomaly in NBA circles
That’s not the point. The point is this Management structure can work. Some Championship teams are built like this. Give it time.
The Kings have also been built like this, officially or unofficially, for the past seven years. Skepticism is not just understandable, it is demanded.
I certainly haven’t heard this before in the past 14 years. 😉
How many final decisions did McNair make in Houston ? Answer- Zero ! Maybe he will make some here and have success but no reason to think things are actually better except for just Hope !
Yes, West is a special talent, that’s indisputable. But it is also necessary to emphasize that Vivek isn’t Joe Lacob, either.
The head of the Business Operations also reports directly to Vivek. It doesn’t mean that they get to weigh in on draft selections.
But Dumars’ job description explicitly states that he will be advising on basketball matters and reporting directly to Vivek.
Which isn’t the same thing as saying that his opinions will carry more weight than McNair’s.
Even if Houston blows up, McNair wouldn’t be unemployed any longer than he wanted to be. I don’t see him coming here to be hamstrung by Joe Dumars.
Dumars’ opinion on basketball matters shouldn’t carry ANY weight, is the point. Unless he reports to McNair, which he does not. This organizational structure will inevitably lead to competition and friction between Dumars and McNair, and confusion among the fanbase, the players, the coaches, and the rest of the organization. What happens the next time the Kings draft a player who doesn’t reach his potential? Or the next time the Kings make what turns out to be a bad trade? Was that McNair’s call? Dumars’ call? Vivek’s call, after listening to McNair and Dumars and then going his own way? There is STILL going to be no clarity about who, exactly, is IN CHARGE here, and so every mistake (and mistakes are inevitable, even in great organizations) will lead to finger-pointing and petty he-said-she-said office political nonsense. For goodness’ sake, just hire ONE GUY, make him THE GUY, and get the heck out of the way. Enough with this Silicon Valley crap. This isn’t that hard. ONE FREAKING GUY.
Exactly. This is just more of the same shit from the stupidest organization and the worst owner in professional sports. Even a consultant with a proven track record could not get Vivek out of his own way. That last tweet in the article says it all. Multiple candidates turned this job down for that very reason.
So we get the guy desperate enough clinging to a possibly sinking ship in Houston. Out of the 6 candidates that were named, most people had Monte 3rd or 4th. It’s a mediocre hire. Which to the Kings feels like a huge win.
But they even fucked that up, and I give it a year before this competent individual realizes how shit runs around here. He might already think of this job as a placeholder. First time one of his highly technical analytical basketball decisions gets shot down by the guy who won a championship in 2004, he’s gone.
It was always the plan to have Joe D running things. He was a great player in the 80s and 90s and had success as a GM before the game passed him by. He whispered some sweet nothings to Vivek about jazz music and did he mention he knows Isiah Thomas? This dog and pony show with Sportology and interviews speaks for itself. As one of our more illustrious posters often says, “The proof is in the pudding”. Well the pudding looks a lot like Joe D’s jizz cuz we’re all getting fucked.
Another decade of irrelevance likely. Maybe we’ll crack 40 wins at some point though. They’ll probably throw a parade.
Time to take a break from this team again. I hope I’m wrong and this group does great things. I hope so for the fans, who deserve so much better than this shit-show circus they are subjected to year after year. Not optimistic though.
Damn! Airmax coming with the fire!
Wow!
So pessimistic Airmax. At most this will set us back 6 years.
That’s not to mention Pete D and Mike Malone, George Karl and Vlade and Brandon Williams and Dave Joerger.
McNair is a very good hire. Thats the story here…agreed.
Dumars has been around the game his entire life. Knows the game. 3 rings…player/GM. If anything, his role should be strictly advisory. Dumars should be our Jerry West…wishful thinking. Dumars should have the opportunity to give an opinion strictly based on the improvement of our team. Not a decision maker. A different pair of eyes. McNair doesn’t appear arrogant and McNair won’t see everything. This is why it is imperative the FO operates like a machine. McNair appears to listen and communicates well. Dumars is competent enough for an advisory type of role. Not sure what his title means now though. McNair has an it factor. I have no worries about him until it’s time to worry about him.
Now, Limp Walton has to go. We have another chance to get it right. In this order, fire Walton, hire Donovan, Brown, or D’Antoni. We need a damn coach. I’m in on Donovan. That has WCF written all over it with smart solid moves. It’ll be up to the players then.
I think there’s room for other roles if they handle them correctly. Dumars represented Killian Hayes, and set Hayes up with his trainer (Will Bynum). If McNair’s team is high on Hayes, then Dumars would be the person to make the introduction. Dumars has a very good reputation throughout the league, and I think it would be beneficial to leverage his relationships to convince rookies and free agents to at least meet with McNair. In a perfect world Dumars could be Scott Perry lite. He makes the introductions and gives his opinion, but doesn’t make the ultimate decision about a specific transaction.
“Dumars should have the opportunity to give an opinion strictly based on the improvement of our team. Not a decision maker. A different pair of eyes.”
I’d be a lot more comfortable if McNair hired someone who shared his values to perform in this role instead of being saddled with Dumars. It is also contrary to the announced organizational structure, where Dumars reports to Vivek, not McNair.
Reporting and decision making are not the same. Maybe I’m overly optimistic after 22 yrs of misery with this team. I think this could work. McNair should have people that share the same values as he does, but this is still an athlete’s game. An athlete sees the game completely differently than say someone who watches and critiques the game. McNair is a former athlete, but in football. McNair doesnt need a bunch of yes men. Maybe 1 at the most. As our GM, he should listen to a former successful player and semi-successful GM for ideas. Listening does not mean Dumars is making decisions. Nor do I think Dumars will attempt to sabotage this set up. The FO needs stabilizing true, but you can never fully understand anything in life from just one perspective…specifically basketball. We need more people and Vivek needs to pay up to build a winner. Either he’s in it to make money, win, or both. I hope he understands it takes money to win and I hope winning trumps everything else.
Give them time. Hell, we’ve waited 14 yrs to sniff the playoffs. We’re finally seeing some daylight. Now if we can only get Donovan in here…ð¤
Not like anyone has a choice, really…but if I had a nickel for every time…
I think this is a very fair (if optimistic) take, but it is missing the Vivek component.
So I hope you are right. But I don’t get the outrage towards those who see a problem in this dynamic, unless Vivek has finally realized he’s not a visionary and isn’t going to revolutionize the league.
That’s not the story here, really. It’s a piece of a larger story. This franchise has about a 100% track record of screwing up their good fortune. Assuming things are different now is specious logic, based on history alone.
Ultimately, it might be fine. But let’s be real, there’s no chance McNair is the primary voice in the room in this setup.
I love that they pretend that Joe Dumars isn’t work shopping stuff with Vivek outside of McNair’s chain supervision by giving him fake duties.
Hey Joe, we planned to redo the 800 block by now. Do we hold off on that for 2 years or 3? Is it now apartments or still condos? Finally, the movie theater wants to extend rent credits to March 2021 … thoughts??? Also, McNair wants to make Bagley a center. You good with that? PS – great job guarding MJ in 88.
“Monte, you are THE GUY and report directly to me! Joe, you are the OTHER GUY who will tell me to ignore Monte and do something else.”
Exactly. Same shit, different day.
I disagree
So you believe that Dumars will completely stay out of the way of who to draft and trade and will leave the decision to McNair?
I mean with all of his real estate and entertainment duties … he may not have time to meddle.
you realize that ex basketball players can venture outside their previous expertise, right? It’s possible Dumars has investment background in those areas and we just don’t know it yet.
The former GM sure as hell was venturing outside his area of expertise.
Whatever the hell it was.
Shaving intermittently.
Wikipedia & Google say he has business experience. He used to own an auto supply company. I’m not sure if that’s a useful background for any of the businesses the Kings are involved in.
You don’t hire a painter to fix a pro racecar, and you don’t hire a basketball executive to sell condos.
I am not saying that, I don’t mind Dumars having a voice. I mean, he built a championship team for crying out loud, he knows what he’s talking about.
My point is he wont be the final decision maker. And Vivek won’t go around Monte to appease Dumars. That is all that matters
I’m glad you are optimistic about this, and I think a lot of us want to be too. But the fact that from our outside view looking in on the front office workings of this organization in the past, we don’t have what we the fans take as solid evidence that this can work to better the team’s performance, both on and off the court.
McNair is a fantastic hire and light years ahead of the last five years, if he is the SOLE person responsible for decisions. Dumars is also a good hire, and I hope they work well in their respective roles. But the fact that they have roles that appear to overlap as well as the history this team has with disfunction, betrayal, and mismanagement doesn’t give us positive vibes. I want to be wrong, but the experience to this point doesn’t give me hope in that regard.
I think the first real proof to us fans or outside the building will be come draft time, if nothing else big happens first.
If he’s not the final decision-maker, he should be reporting to the final decision-maker, which is supposed to be Monte McNair. That’s the problem here. McNair is a great choice for decision-maker, but Vivek has clouded the waters by hiring Dumars as a not-decision-maker whose job will be to influence decisions outside the official decision-maker’s chain of command. It’s a recipe for confusion and toxicity.
EDIT: I really, really hope you are right and this all works just fine. I (and others) are just extremely cynical after so many years of seeing this exact same thing playing out poorly.
Again, I don’t know how anyone could state something like this with such certainty. You’d almost think they were a brand new fan of the franchise.
Well put!
Last 12 hours of fandom:
ð¬ ð ð ð ð³ ð¤ ð¤¦ï¸
But hey, it included some moments of happiness and optimism, so …
it was fun while it lasted.
Vivek’s strategy has been a problem
He is unlikely to sell
Is Aneel taking over the most pragmatic solution?
Aneel wanted Luka. What else do we need to know? Dave & Sam Amick conjectured that Aneel was the one advocating for Gupta. Monte may work out fine, but Aneel has been more closely aligned with the fans. The People’s Chairmen!
Signed,
-Not Aneel Ranadive
And once again, we are reminded that we are the KANGZ… the optimism was fun while it lasted. I hope I’m wrong but I can already see Mcnair stepping down in the near future.
Heres a thought Vivek – if excellent candidates are rejecting the position due to you keeping Dumars on in the front office, maybe it’s a bad idea.
Hope I’m wrong
But an excellent candidate took the position
More excellent candidates declined to even be interviewed because of Dumars’ involvement, per Amick. That tell me all I need to know.
Do we know for sure any other candidate is more excellent than Monte. I mean, its all conjecture from us. I am just saying let it play out
I’m totally fine with Monte, I don’t like that fact others turned down interviews because of Dumars’ role.
That’s fair
If that’s all you were saying, I don’t think you’d get so much disagreement.
Let’s not pretend even without Dumars involvement that the Kings job is easily the most difficult turnaround in the league. It might be the hardest job to take right now.
Also this
I think the Knicks still own that title.
Being in a big market theoretically gives them a way to improve via FA’s, which isn’t likely to be a method that the Kings can use for major improvement. However, they probably won’t be able to significantly improve via FA’s until they have a competent FO. Like the Kings, they can utilize trades & the draft.
I have been named Vice President of Where Good Ideas Go to Die.
I’m sure this has come up, but here’s a little bit from Morey within a great talk. He talks about the Rockets’ “Monte McNair” rule. Which is to make sure you analyze every trade idea from the POV of the opponent. It seems obvious, but from that sounds of this clip, it may not be the standard in all FOs.
The fact that Monte is well-regarded by Morey and Hinkie is an excellent sign
This im sure has also circulated but McNair was on some panels at this sloan. nice above clip.
The Kings own Luke Bornn is in that one as well.
Didnt Bornn leave?
It’s still in his Twitter bio.
No, he is still vice president of strategy and analytics…at least for now.
He’s even got a website: lukebornn.com
His role is now Basketball Analytics Advisor according to the Kings contact page. He and Billy Beane are involved in some sort of venture capital thing now trying to buy sports analytics companies.
I’d guess Monte will use Bornn better than previous regimes.
I sure as hell hope so, but worry that his analytics helped Vlade pick Bagley over Doncic.
Based on Vlade’s white board I don’t think he spent too much time pouring over detailed statistical analysis. “20 and 10 guy” is about the most I ever heard Vlade say with respect to stats.
True, but if we are going to use the “guy in the room” resume analysis for McNair in Houston or Gupta in Minny, we should use it on Bornn.
He’s been with the analytics team since 2017. What good choices have the Kings made since he’s been here?
From the Kings bio page he looks to be third in decision making, behind assistant GM Catanella.
There’s no way in hell analytics pushed Bagley over Doncic.
I agree, but then what has Bornn been doing for the past 3 years?
Waiting for read receipts from all the emails he sent to Vlade?
Vlade literally told the godfather of basketball analytics (Oliver) he wasn’t even allowed to show up at Summer League then fired him. I don’t think Vlade has the highest regard for stats guys. If I were to guess, Bornn probably helped out with the lower level player analysis. Stuff like summer league roster development and UDFAs to invite to camp in the preseason.
I’ve been saying since the beginning that I don’t think Bornn does anything for the Kings. I think he was being paid to attach his name to the team to give them cover for completely ignoring analytics. I haven’t checked recently, but Bornn basically never tweeted or talked about the Kings publicly and he sure seemed to spend a lot of time on non-Kings work.
Maybe he filed occasional analytics reports or trade evaluations that Vlade tossed right in the trash. Until proven otherwise, I don’t think Bornn was even a part time employee. I think he was a consultant at best, paid for his name and nothing else the team actually valued.
Oh ok, thanks. I don’t know why I thought that
There’s no evidence that Vlade relied on him for advice, so it’s understandable.
Vlade was incompetent. But, the Kings are a dysfunctional dumpster fire 7 years running because Vivek has a confusing, disorganized and cut throat (yet ineffectively so) organization where people fight for power and control within the non-linear structure. (A nonlinear structure isn’t necessarily bad. People constantly going House of Cards within that system to produce Veep results is the unresolved issue.)
None of that was addressed or fixed.
Vivek has horrible instincts and abysmal track record. He both meddles at the wrong times and doesn’t intervene at the right times (other owners would have thrown their bodies in front of the Malone firing and/or Bagley over Doncic.). It’s quite a combo.
Matina persists, has her own sphere, and meddles.
Dumars now has his own sphere. Watch the 8 minute Grantland 2014 draft video. Watch the way Vivek relies on Mullin and dotes on him. Seems like Dumars is Mullin x 2.
McNair has to navigate all of that.
The man with horrible instincts has managed to accrue billions of dollars. It doesn’t mean that it applies to running a basketball team, but if McNair has the control that I think he does, Ranadive’s influence over the on-court product is likely to diminish considerably, as it seems to have over the past few years.
Over the history of this organization in Sacramento, Joe Dumars influence doesn’t make the top 200 of things that have had negative impact.
He made his money based upon a technology invitation that made the web faster for some. The speed part translated because he f’d up this team and burned through his goodwill but there is nothing that guarantees success in one field will translate to running another industry and trying to remake downtown at the same time.
Being rich or successful in one field, does not mean one is likely to succeed in another. Even if there were such a presumption, seven years of crapping the bed seems to rebut it
On that Grantland video, I know it’s an 8 minute documentary on picking a draft bust which in hindsight of course looks bad. And most things Vivek does are pretty cringe. But it’s not like the process was terrible.
It’s a good thing to have different perspectives in the room, and that’s what the video was about, getting amateur analytics guys in there to make a pitch. People keep saying Vivek overruled PDA, just because he spoke last, but in the same cut PDA says “I think Stauskus,” just before they pan to Vivek and he makes it final. This could have been edited, but it seems like that was the moment it was decided. And it seems to me more like an echo than an overrule. Plus, wouldn’t every GM have to clear the decision with the owner before they make the call?
Almost every mock board had Stauskas going between 8 and 14, so it wasn’t a stretch. The team preferred shooting over defense at that point, and they picked a guy that didn’t work out. It happens all the time. Wiggins went #1 and cost a likely lottery pick just to get out of his contract. Nobody had Jokic going in the first round.
I guess my point is: everybody is dumb and drafting is hard to get right even for the best professionals.
I am forced to admit that I am confused that people seem to think that Chief Strategy Officer is above Head of Basketball Operations on the chain of command.
Dumars may have Ranadive’s ear on many things, but I don’t think his opinions relating to drafting, free agents or on-court philosophy are going to supersede McNair’s. I don’t see the new guy taking a job at the Sinkhole of Sport¢ unless he can enact his vision.
I would feel more comfortable if Dumars’ role was clearly defined as inferior to McNair’s vis-a-vis basketball, but that’s how I think it will operate. I’m not stressed about this.
I read it as Dumars is a bit of Vivek’s proxy when he’s not around. Sure, Dumars is not above McNair, but he is parallel to him. I just envision when it is time for some big decision that Vivek has not been up to speed on, he’s going to turn to Dumars and ask, “Joe, do you concur with McNair’s decision?”
That is what I have a problem with.
Vivek has his faults, but he has proven that he doesn’t do that anymore. He let Vlade make EVERY decision.
Then why did he bring in Dumars in a year before Vlade “resigned.”
I think for at least the last year or so Vlade did have the final decision on basketball related matters. Vivek decided to take that power away from Vlade causing him to resign. Dumars may have advised him to do so, but that’s different than say having veto power over trades and whatnot.
Could this be Vivek’s way of distancing himself from involvement in decision making? I think you’re right. This sounds more like a proxy role than anything else.
The problem I have with that, is good owners don’t need a proxy. They hire a competent GM and let them run the show without supervision or “advisors.”
I think we all agree Vivek isn’t a good owner yet on the basketball side. So we just hope Joe doesn’t have an agenda like previous advisors. And I’m glad this one has an official title. Having a title means accountability.
I’m still a bit confused about what seems like the consensus around here about owner involvement in pro teams. Vivek meddled. Good owners don’t meddle. That’s different than not being involved. If Fox was on any of the the other 29 teams I guarantee you the GM would need authorization from the owner before offering the deal.
And why is it so bad for an owner to have an advisor in the abstract? Vivek doesn’t know shit. Isn’t it a good thing, in general, for a person who doesn’t know shit to have someone advise them about the thing they don’t know shit about?
if the advisor is breaking the chain of command at the owners behest and undermining the GM, then that’s bad. But that’s different than saying advisors, in general, are bad.
this isn’t directed at you, just more of a general comment. I feel like a lot of people are kinda implying Dumars is willing to be this Rasputin like sinister advisor. There’s no proof that Dumars ever interfered with in his advisor role during the Vlade era. All indications are that he’s a man of the highest character who’s well respected throughout the league because he’s a man of integrity. For all we know McNair wants him to be there to fill in the gaps as they overhaul the front office, and provide advise on how to navigate this new role.
If we break this down at the most basic level, a little over a month ago this front office had zero people in b-ball ops that have been in high level positions for championship caliber teams. Now they have 2 people. That seems like a win to me until proven otherwise.
so anyways, the McNair regime could all go up in flames. I’m just not sure today’s events rise to the level of evidence that that will be the case.
It’s possible VIvek is struggling with a “do no right” mentality in regards to decision making with this team. Unfortunately, When he meddled, the Stauskas meme was born. When he didn’t meddle, we got the Suicide Squad dubbed video. When he meddled, Vlade forced out Pete D. When he didn’t meddle, Vlade picks Bagley over Doncic.
I think Dumars as an advisor probably recommended Vlade get removed despite just receiving an extension. Maybe he said something to the effect that keeping him on will be more expensive than eating his contract. Bringing in Forde to assist with the hire was a great decision. It gave the team access to some of the best candidates available.
Maybe this helps Vivek get out of the weeds and make better decision making going forward. Maybe that’s why Dumars is sticking around as an advisor. I’m glad they gave him an official title for whatever that means.
And that’s really what I’m getting at. People act like he’s had these outside advisors throughout his entire tenure lurking over his shoulder whispering in his ear to give them power. That’s just simply not true. He had Richmond/Mullins for like a year and a half, Vlade was an advisor for like 2 months (and I suspect the plan was always to make Vlade’s Pete’s boss), and Dumars for a about a year. That’s two and a half-ish years out of 7 in which Vivek has utilized an advisor. And there is zero evidence that Dumars did anything as an advisor other than provide advise that Vivek absolutely needed to hear.
So again, I get why this gives the appearance of “here we go again”, but I just don’t see it based on the actual timeline of events. He was too involved for the first two years or 3 years, and then didn’t hold Vlade accountable for his mistakes over the last 4 years. Now he’s putting someone who’s proven to be trustworthy in between himself and the basketball decision makers to evaluate the results of the decisions they make, while also providing input and assistance. That seems to me like a step in the right direction.
Theoretically I agree. But there’s some PTSD involved from a fan perspective.
Dumars isnt just another staff coming to Vivek with b’ball opinions. He’s an ex-player…that carries TONS more weight with Vivek.
It doesn’t have to be, nor should it be. The problem is Vivek. Do you really trust him to stay 100% out of the way and to let both guys do their jobs properly?
Fans should be skeptical on that front, even if it’s possible he’s finally learned his lesson. And given his poor track record, Vivek has not earned the benefit of the doubt in situations like this.
You don’t think there’s a chance McNair thinks he’s got full control and that won’t be the case in practice, or longterm? You been out of the corporate world for a while?
Am I pissed that Dumars is still in the fold, of course. That said even pessimistic me has to say the candidates and McNair himself, the speed of the hire pre draft have all been far more worthy of optimism than how I thought this was gonna go. I expected Dumars for the year upon Vlade’s exit, or a shamble interview process that simply put him in charge. Or another player who seemed ten years behind the league. All that hasn’t happened.
McNair is maybe not a stand out relative to other teams, but the Kings hired a GM that is analytically driven from one of the most reputable front offices in the league. It doesnt he hurt he has dealt with an owner worse than Vivek the last two years either. It’s a respectable hire. I never doubted more people would consider the job simply from the fact these jobs are limited. I just thought Vivek would still be attracted to who he would rather hang out with than thought competent for the job.
This isnt to excuse red flags. Pressure is on now for if McNair does go bad we might have a dramatic pendulum to anti analytic modern team construction that followed Pete. And the Walton situation is concerning. But I think we might be entering the version of normal crazy owner who forces certain people in jobs and is erratic, but not in as disastrous or significant ways. Vivek has been bad but he isnt alone in the evolution of owners becoming more hands off and regressing to an intelligent status quo to league counterparts. Even with the Dumars news we are better off than I thought we would be.
Dumars also spent some time as President of Basketball Ops for Independent Sports and Entertainment, the Ron Burkle backed company.
Oops, I meant this as an addition to RORDOG’s comment below.
Breaking news:
Monte McNair is the new GM of Sacramento.
Yeeeeaaaaaaahhh!!! Houston 2.0, maybe even better!!!
Also Breaking news:
Joe Dumars is the new CSO reporting directly to Vivek
YEEEEEEAAAAAAAHHH!!! Kangz 4.0 is here to stay!!!
One small think to look at is that there is now technically a person ranked between Matina and the GM. If you wanted to spin Dumars as a positive, then that would be it. If Dumars replaces Matina in the bball group chat then that’s probably a good thing.
One other small aspect to this is that Dumars does have a lot of connections in this league. He’s been a player, front office exec, and president of the basketball side of ISE. They’re one of the bigger agencies out there.
He also ran his own auto parts company and apparently owns a couple sports and entertainment facilities. Point being, he actually has real world experience in the various aspects of his new role with the Kings.
Chief Strategy Officer?
In
allas much seriousness as the Kings organization merits, Dumars as an advisor and extra voice in the room would be no big deal for almost any other organization. But the Kangz have long since cashed in all of their fan/media goodwill chips, so even the smallest organizational hiccups moving forward will be greatly magnified.The hope is that McNair is given the room to operate and shape the roster and coaching staff as he sees fit, with Dumars there as nothing more than a person to bounce ideas off of. Under that scenario, Dumars could prove to be a nice asset.
The Kings actually conducted a search to fill a high level seat in their basketball operations. That is something that they really have not done prior under this ownership (as it pertains to front office or head coach, really). That is a step in the right direction. The question now is whether or not they will fuck it up. For me, I am going to need to see a pattern of professionalism, decision making, communication and results before I start clearing my summers for playoff basketball.
Mark this as a good day for Kings basketball, and a good day is a month for Kings fans.
Bingo – agreed on all counts.
I’m going to choose to believe that Vivek has his hand in many pots, and Dumars is going to help with those since he can’t be everywhere, and basketball is one of those pots.
But I’m not ditching my KANGZ shirt anytime soon.
Right there with you.
Wait, do those qualify as pants, or are they just really old and stretched out boxer briefs?
Those are his wood cutting shorts.
And look at that wingspan! Wider than the average gator’s.
I was expecting to see a “quaratine haircut” from your photo.
Well, there was this…
I can already feel the dysfunction starting within the Kings organization. Vivek really never learns
I guess this would be my question: As a Kings fan, would you have preferred a clean hire of McNair, with a clean slate to build his own basketball ops, or do you prefer the current setup that includes Joe Dumars?
For me, I would have preferred McNair be given the opportunity to retain / not retain Dumars. To be clear, I’m fine with Dumars being involved. I just wish that it was at the behest of McNair and not Ranadive. After everything we have witnessed over the past seven years, it would have been the preferred setup, for me anyway.
I would be fine with Dumars in another role, preferably defined under McNair. If here were assistant GM, fine. The issue I have is is separate sphere of influence and power that could lead to conflict down the road, because it has already happened twice with this owner’s management structure.
Under the circumstances, I find it impossible to NOT be concerned about that. Hope for the best, but prepare for the Kangz, right?
It cracks me up that people with purple colored glasses and/or Stockholm syndrome, cannot ascertain how this structure is actually set up and will work. We’ve already seen this with Mullin and Pete. Except that Mulin had never been a GM, and Matina was limited because she had not pushed out Granger and all of his confident people at that point.
While I agree with your concern 100%, I just don’t see the need for the name calling. Your point is solid without stooping to discrediting or demeaning others. /Off soapbox.
You tell ’em, buttface!
I’ve shown you mine, now show me yours.
I’m sorry, I meant “facebutt.”
Thank you.
Dumars built one of the three modern NBA championship teams that did not have a current or former MVP on the roster (and he played for another one). Yes, it was 16 years ago, but it is an absolutely wild accomplishment, especially given that there was nobody on that roster who was even seriously in the MVP conversation at any point in their careers.
MVP and MVP-adjacent talents aren’t going to be lining up to come to Sacramento voluntarily in any version of reality, so either this team needs to luck into one in the draft, rent one like the 2019 Raptors or put together a 2004 Pistons style team. Having the guy who already did the latter once in the room should be a good thing.
As for McNair, I am very glad the Kings went with an analytics-focused GM. At a minimum he should be able to recognize Buddy’s value in the modern NBA rather than thinking “disgruntled bench player” and trade him for Al Horford and a sack of belly button lint.
But what if it were two sacks of belly button lint?
I would hold out for 3 sacks and a toe knife.
Welp.
You can both appreciate this hire and a process that actually had interviews and:
* realize this team is probably screwed based upon its owner and his management choices
* had some hope that the Kings were going to take a few steps to START identifying and clean up a little of the rot after flaming out and panicking about it briefly
* and be disappointed and concerned that a potentially good hire is probably just new meat for a broken machine that always yields bad results.
I’m confused. Wasn’t it said in the last day or so that the new GM would be able to pick his assistant(s) and staff? Did he agree he’s ok with Dumars?
I believe, technically, Dumars would not be considered part of McNair’s staff.
McNair and the other candidates were also apprised of the role Dumars would be playing. So clearly McNair was okay with it. Or, at least, it wasn’t a deal killer for him.
You know, that might actually be a positive way to spin the Amick news about other execs backing out after hearing about the role Dumars would play…
Hidden in that tweet, is the idea that the Kings CLEARLY spelled out in advance what Dumars’ role would be in the org structure.
That level of communication alone is an improvement, as even though the new setup *looks* like the previous ones, I don’t know that those roles were quite so clearly defined before – either before the exec took the job (Mullin/PDA) or while the existing exec was in the job (Vlade/Dumars).
In addition, while I have a number of reservations about Dumars, putting him side by side next to Mullin and evaluating strictly on their work in NBA front-offices, well….it’s not even close.
I’ve seen discussions above about whether or not Dumars will be playing a Jerry West type of role going forward. If that’s the case, and we look at this on a spectrum, it has to look like this:
Mullin < Dumars < West
And that’s…at least….an improvement.
I’ve read the press release of Joe Dumars hire on khtk.com. I think it paints a better picture of what Dumars’ role will be.
I think we’re all a little concerned about how his role in the basketball realm could complicate things with McNair. But after reading his resume explained in the press release, and comparing that to what the Kings want to do in Sacramento, I think he’ll be spending most of his time focusing on off the court activities.
Not sure I totally agree. The quote from Dumars expressly states, “both sides” of the business, meaning both basketball and non-basketball stuff.
Fair enough. I don’t think he’ll be completely removed from the basketball side of things. But I’d argue based on his responsibilities, assuming they all hold equal footing in his day to day, that the basketball side of things would constitute well under 50% of his activities.
I think the person in charge of the Kings contact us page is just as confused about Dumars role as we are
Now hopefully that “head coach position” gets replaced soon…
Joe’s picture is like the grim reaper. When you see it next to yours on the contact us page you know your days in Sac are numbered.
Ooooh! Do Matina next!
Yeah, those look like bookends to me – unless we really believe Joe is below Luke Bornn on the hierarchy.
Meanwhile, on the business side:
If Dumars is doing more than half his work here, you wouldn’t know it.
The important questions are:
1. Will Joe D. move to Sac full time?
2. Who will have final say in basketball matters (Vivek included)?
My guess is that by being actively involved in the community on social justice issues and having seen the negative backlash of Steve Nash getting hired over a black candidate in Brooklyn, Vivek wanted to have a POC in a leadership position as an employee (not advisor) . I would expect McNair’s organization and soon Matina’s to reflect this as well. Meanwhile, all of this could have been avoided if Vivek kept Petrie in place, who was already grooming Shareef to be his successor.
Sounds like discrimination against white folks (which I wouldn’t put past Vivek given how I’ve interpreted certain other actions)
So much for people being hired for merit
I still doubt thats what happening here though
Not to paint Vivek in too negative a light, as he just selected McNair over someone from his own culture, but I can’t say for certain I couldn’t see the intentional POC hires after the IMO leftist turns the franchise has taken (But I don’t believe that is the case here)
I don’t think I’ve ever deleted more replies before hitting “post comment” than I have in response to this set of comments. I just want to ask you this: if you believe what you just wrote, then why do you continue to be a fan of this team? If I thought the owner of my favorite team discriminated against certain races, then I’d just find a new team. I actually did just that when I stopped being a Cowboys fan.
Then why did no one denounce the OP?
The term discriminate can be used in certain ways, many would feel intentionally hiring POC in this climate would not even fit that bill
I’m not here to argue. I said what I said.
The comment by fire_voisin is ridiculous, as are the comments you wrote.
Hiring a qualified POC doesn’t fit the “discrimination” bill in any climate.
Oh, wow, it gets better.
What the fuck are you even talking about?
Pete D. – White guy
Chris Mullin – White guy
Mike Malone – White guy
George Karl – White guy
Vlade Divac – White guy
Peja – White guy
Bratz – White guy
Cantenella – White guy
Dave Joerger – White guy
Luke Walton – White guy
I mean, he hired Brandon Williams, Scott Perry, Ty Corbin and a woman to be athletic trainer. None of Williams, Perry or Corbin were around long. Is hiring any black dude at all “discrimination against white folks?”
I mean, come on. If you’re going to whine about stuff back it up. Otherwise, quit whining.
The dumbest fucker on that list is a 7 foot white guy who fell on his face at every possible opportunity for five years straight before getting fired. I could make a much better case for affirmative action for dipshits and backstabbers than anything you’ve got going.
And that’s why I said both posts I don’t believe it to be true.
But Dumars is in place under suspicious circumstances, and the OP reasoned it as so. So the angle is legit to someone
The Kings have a track record of being off the grid (not average) in being involved in social politics, and some may believe diversifying under this climate is an ethical way (OP)
What are the suspicious circumstances again?
Well, he’s black! That’s always suspicious, amirite?
Holy shit.
The key here is that it’s all about how you’ve interpreted certain other actions.
This is ridiculous. If race was a factor, Gupta would’ve been hired.
Welcome to Cognitive Dissonance Week in the Kingdom. Where reverse discrimination is invoked the same day they choose a white man, from a candidate list that was 50% white man, to the highest basketball ops position in the organization. And where people complain about candidates being unqualified before suggesting if would be easy to find 6 additional good candidates and suggesting someone with zero experience as an example.
If Monte agreed to the job that means that Dumars and Monte share the same vision and want to work in the same organizations with the roles they have been given. Marc Spears has said on multiple occasions that Dumars is someone you want involved in your organization and on paper it looks nice to have a similar system that has worked for other organizations.
The problem is that we were promised this similar functioning system with Mullen and Pete. That did not work and then Vivek tried to implement this strategy twice with Vlade/Pete and Dumars/Vlade. Both led to backstabbing, meddling, somehow Matina being involved, and craziness. The hope is that Vivek, Dumars, and Mike Forde laid out a reasonable plan for how this system should work and it led to Monte being hired. Hopefully it means we actually can develop a functioning model of what the warriors and clippers have done with Jerry West. Will it happen? We will have to see. Until then I will be happy about the process and the Monte hire, but based upon history, reasonably skeptical to see if Dumars and Vivek can let Monte execute his basketball vision.
This is basically where I’m at with everything.
I’d just add this:
So all three are technically examples of meddling of varying degrees. Only one of the three seems to have been an example of logical advice that lead to a positive outcome. There’s also been reports that Dumars doesn’t want to be involved in the day-to-day grind of running a team.
The obvious immediate concern at this point is how does Dumars salary impact the budget for basketball ops. Hopefully, he has a broad enough role on the business side, that part of his salary is allocated to business operations expenses.
This (along with the examples of the Clips and Warriors running similar structures) is a perfect example of the structure mattering FAR less than the actual humans within the structure.
You gotta have the right people in the right places to make things work. So far, based on your example above, it does appear that Dumars *might* be a good fit in this structure. Jerry West is clearly a good fit in this structure.
Mullin/Vlade/Williams clearly were not the kind of people that worked well in this structure.
So while the structure seems to be cast in stone, we do have a brand new human dynamic in place.
All we can really do now, is wait, watch, and see what kind of humans Dumars and McNair prove to be in their new roles.
well said
Perfect way of putting things. It will be interesting to see how the rest of the staff takes shape.
Keep in mind that Dumars was paid last season to be Special Advisor to the GM, with that salary, I would expect, allocated to the b-ball ops budget. With his role now expanded to areas outside of b-ball ops, I would hope that any increase in his compensation will at least partially come out of business operations.
it will also be interesting to see whether his new role will allow him to remain in the LA area as was previously the case.
Good points. This also may play into what Matina is doing. It sounds a bit like Dumars is going to be apart of her sphere in regards to real estate and business operations.
my tin foil hat conspiracy theory is that the minority owners agreed to pay to replace Vlade if Vivek agreed to created a position for Dumars that put some separation between Matina/Vivek and the basketball decision makers. Dumars agreed to be the middle man if he was given the opportunity to be involved on the business side.
Seeing Dumars having a role in all of these plus the tweet from Carmichael Dave, I can easily see why Gupta didn’t land the job. I really do hope Mcnair has all the power and not have to worry about Dumars getting involved when it comes to basketball decisions such as trades and the draft.
If Dumars can stick majority of his role in the business, ventures, entertainment and less on the basketball side then I’m probably be OK with it. But again, we are talking about Vivek so I am a little bit cautious with all of these.
Vivek is not involved in the basketball decision making as much as most of you make him out to be. It was Pete D’s decision to fire Malone, it was Vlade’s decision to draft Bagley. It was Vlade’s decision to fire Joerger and to hire Walton without interviewing anyone else. Vivek trusted their basketball acumen and it backfired. Vivek didn’t interfere with Vlade and I don’t believe he will interfere with McNair, and last point, what could it hurt to have a champion on the staff if everyone’s role has been clearly defined.
“Vivek didn’t interfere with Vlade”
Seeing this from multiple posters now even though this is not at all consistent with all accounts from members of both the local and national media.
Vlade spoke about the meddling in an interview with the Sac Bee:
I would assume he’s hinting at the Joerger hiring since several people have already gone on the record that it was Vivek who reached out to Joerger originally.
The Philly trade also occurred in Vlade’s 1st season.
There was really no indication that Vivek interceded to make that trade. I’m just trying to delineate between instances in which Vivek gave his blessings versus playing a direct role in a manner that superseded Vlade’s decision making authority.
Not to mention that Vlade could well have been referring to his actual first (partial) season with the team, when he and Pete D were jockeying for power.
Clearly, the accounts from the national and local media was fake news.
I’m skeptical that the role of Dumars in BBall Ops has been clearly defined. Vivek definitely played a major role in Vlade’s 1st season (which was when the Philly trade occurred).
I just don’t get all the negativity toward Vivek. The guy has tried to create a winner but has hired to wrong GM’s. Maybe McNair is a step in the right direction, time will tell.
Do you realize how many people have come and gone in the front office since Vivek has been owner? Just off the top of my head:
Vlade
Peja
Bratz
Perry
D’Alessandro
Mullin
Williams
Granger
I guess Vivek is like a pro quarterback. To many accolades when things go right and too much blame when things go wrong.
But what’s gone right over the past 7 years?
Fixed:
Too many accolades when thing went right…
Well, the result of his work to date speaks for itself.
He has earned a “show me before I believe it and get excited” response from the fanbase. I have a hard time fathoming why anyone would push back on such a response from fans at this point.
I just don’t get all the negativity toward Vivek
The most important job opens up in your organization, you don’t interview anyone, and you hire someone with no experience. Sure, let’s look the other way.
Playground dedications will only get you so far with the fan base, obviously some more than others.
Wait, how do these sentences go together:
I mean, that’s a good reason for negativity right there.
Vivek has meddled in BBall Ops at times & the Kings haven’t made the playoffs during his tenure as owner. That leads to frustration & skepticism.
It’s the arrogance combined with the incompetence.
Welcome to TKH, Aneel Ranadive!!
Jesus Christ. McNair will be gone by this time next year. This team is fucked as long as Vivek is the owner.
I still don’t understand.
7 years since the entire ownership group bought the Kings back to stay in Sacramento,
this is tne first time tney’re hiring a Chief Strategy Officer?
Vivek still the guy ! Sadly, just a new more talented version of Pete D ! Wish him all the best as he will truly need it !
I do want to add that properly utilized, the Kings are better on both sides of the organization with Dumars on board. As a sounding board and advisor, he could provide McNair with a perspective of one who once sat in that chair. Much in the same way that young players talk about slowing the game down in their heads, Dumars could assist this brand new GM in a similar manner. And as one that has lived his life in this country as a person of color, he could be invaluable on the community side of things.
The key is “properly utilized,” especially when it comes to basketball ops. If one of Dumars’ jobs is to report to Ranadive, it is imperative that McNair never feels undercut or back-doored by Dumars. Otherwise this thing comes undone in rapid fashion.
There have been far too many shitnanigans over the past seven years of this ownership. Turning the page? Clean slate? Lessons learned? Hope springs eternal. Now let’s see what happens.
Go Kings.
My concerns are related to my belief that McNair is likely to turn over the roster significantly. These aren’t his players, and I doubt that many of them fit well within his specific analytical approach to basketball. But what will Dumars think about this? Will he support or argue against McNair? I really don’t know the answer, because these aren’t Dumars’ players, either. If McNair takes such an aggressive approach to the remaking the roster, as he should, the support of Dumars will be essential to keep Vivek from meddling. It will also be critical for Dumars to avoid being used by disgruntled players as a sounding board.
I would assume those conversations were part of the interview process.
I would assume the same thing. Each candidate likely came into the interview with a vision for the Kings including an opinion on current players.
A thought on the Joe Dumars/Monte McNair dynamic:
McNair comes from the Houston Rockets, so he is accustomed to large collaborative groups. Daryl Morey is the General Manager, and the “Basketball Operations” is a division of the larger front office. That’s why he was “promoted” from VP of Basketball Ops to Assistant GM. I think the McNair hire signals an interest in emulating that model and building out a more robust front office. Although Morey doesn’t have a Dumars-equivalent in Houston, McNair had to be comfortable with this arrangement in order to take the position.
Whether we like it or not, this is Vivek’s management style as an owner. It’s better to have someone who accepts that and is willing to work within that framework. Unlike previous front offices, this isn’t a situation where a “Special Advisor” emerges due to problems with the team’s management. The arrangement is up front this time.There’s always the possibility that it becomes a repeat of the same old cycle, but doing this up front hopefully decreases that possibility.
This is where I hope Mike Forde came in and helped Vivek design an upfront system that will not allow craziness to happen in the front office.
Honestly, I am just really happy that the Kings upgraded their front office. Even though I would prefer there to not be the appearance of competing voices on the basketball side, I am actually way more confused about Dumars offering strategy in the Kings’ non-basketball related endeavors. Like, WTF does Joe Dumars know about commercial real estate in Sacramento? WTF does he really know about business?
So weird.
One example I can think of is PR. I wouldn’t call that a basketball operation, but Joe D can probably help there. Like if he calls up Charles Barkley and says “you need to watch out for Fox, he deserves to be an all star,” then Chuck is at least taking that call and considering it on TNT. The same might not be true for McNair. And we know things like all star appearances can impact jersey sales, national TV appearances, commercial endorsement opportunities, and other stuff that colors whether a star player will stay with his team and grow the brand alongside the franchise.
Another example might be consulting on board of governors issues. Given his 35 years as a player and exec in the NBA, Dumars has had a closer look at the evolution of the CBA, rule changes, league charities, etc. than almost anyone on earth. Being a leader in those kinds of discussions can only help us gain respectability.
I have no idea whether Dumars has wisdom left in the tank to offer, nor whether he has good intentions to support McNair without staging a coup. But I can definitely see why it makes sense to have someone in the room with 30+ years of experience and the contacts of a HOFer / champion, given that the Owner and Pres of BBall Ops are both very green in their roles.
Realistically though, he’s probably just warming the seat and making introductions for 3-4 years while Vivek’s son is groomed for the role of conduit between the Pres of BB Ops and ownership. The Nuggets have Josh Kroenke in that role and the Heat Nick Arison.
I mentioned before that I grew up in the agriculture world (headed back to ol Turlock this weekend actually for an outdoor wedding in an orchard!). The one thing farmers do a lot of times is make their sons start from the bottom of the business and work their way up. It’s obviously a bit superficial, but I still think that it provides a valuable lesson.
So if Aneel wants to be the top dog one day, then let him spend some time as a video coordinator. Once he’s learned that, then he can move up to assistant midwest scout, and travel around Iowa checking out D3 games. And so on and so forth. It’s still technically nepotism, but at least he’ll have a better understanding of the work that’s required for a basketball organization to succeed. It can’t all be meetings with prospective execs and fancy dinners with international phenoms.
Idk what Dumars knows about real estate, but he used to own an auto supply company (he sold it to focus on his duties as Detroit’s GM), so he has some business experience.
Maybe it’s not about what Dumars knows about real estate, but instead it’s about what he can learn by being around Vivek’s real estate and other investment activities. He could be serving as a basketball ops advisor at a somewhat discounted rate in order to develop the expertise and contacts on the business side of things for his own future interests.
At this point I have to say our time in the Bubble was a success. We’ve moved on from Vlade and Peja which was the first step.
Time for McNair to get the Fire Sale going. Start with the coaching staff. Then, move on to this ill constructed roster. I will support anything and everything Monte wants to impose. That includes trading Fox, if he feels he’s not a centerpiece for a championship team. I hope Mcnair will slowly but surely wipe away the Kings Losers Mentality of fighting for an 8th spot every year. It’s time to have bigger aspirations and build Sac into a formidable fighting championship contender for years to come. We have waited this long. Let’s do it right for for the first time in 15 years. If it takes 2-3 years to make the Kings a force again, so be it. I am going on blind faith. Especially with Vivek in the background. I am hoping he steps aside. Let Monte get to work. Let’s revel in all the housecleaning that’s going to take place in the next couple months. Exciting times. Finally!!!
The structure doesn’t sound great because so far it hasn’t worked in the past. There’s been leaked information and posturing through the media and no real sense of who’s in charge.
But there’s no reason this setup can’t work. Good executives usually have many people and different perspectives giving them advice. It just depends who those people are, and what advice they’re giving, and luck plays a huge factor too.
So far I’m not really sure what Dumars has contributed to the organization, but if he said get rid of Vlade and put someone else in charge, even though he’d recently been given a four-year extension for not making the playoffs, then all up that’s pretty sound advice. It doesn’t seem like he’s leaking damaging and conflicting stories to the press, so, not the worst guy to keep around and certainly could be compatible as a voice in the room with McNair running the show.
Of course Kangz are likely going to Kangz until they prove they can do something better. So not drinking the purple kool-aid, but not saying it’s all over either.
I’m just waiting for Monte to read the handbook:
Badge Legend