Bleacher Report’s Jake Fischer provided a Ben Simmons update this morning, saying it seems less and less likely that Simmons is traded this offseason.
Each of Minnesota, Golden State, Sacramento and San Antonio has been consistently linked as a top Simmons destination, yet the overwhelming sense among league insiders continues to be that Simmons, for now, is expected to remain a Sixer once training camp opens on September 28—barring a change of temperature with Damian Lillard in Portland.
Fischer goes on to explain that Philly has their sights set on Damian Lillard, and is unlikely to trade Simmons for a package unless it helps them eventually get Lillard.
Fischer adds that the Kings can’t meet Philly’s current asking price unless they include De’Aaron Fox:
Sacramento has no real avenue to land Simmons without sacrificing De’Aaron Fox. The Kings’ star guard has drawn varying evaluations during B/R conversations around the league, but his value certainly appears higher than Simmons’ at the moment.
As Fischer notes, it seems quite unlikely that the Kings would include Fox. It’s at least encouraging to hear that Fox is being properly valued around the league.
This report comes on the heels of yesterday’s report from The Athletic’s Sam Amick that the Toronto Raptors are unlikely to trade Pascal Siakam this offseason.
It’s no secret that the Kings want to make a big move this offseason. They’ve been linked to trade talks with Simmons and Siakam, and could be in talks for other big names that simply haven’t leaked. But as the pool of available stars dries up, we’re left to wonder where the Kings go from here.
There are few notable names remaining in free agency, and it seems unlikely the Kings are going to be adding any other free agents on any sort of sizeable contracts. We learned yesterday from ESPN’s Bobby Marks that the Kings no longer have the full Mid-Level Exception at their disposal after using part of it to sign Alex Len:
Details on the Alex Len contract in Sacramento:
21/22- $3.7M
22/23- $3.9MYear 1 came out of the $9.5M midlevel exception
Fully guaranteed for both seasons
Sacramento is $6.5M below the tax
— Bobby Marks (@BobbyMarks42) August 17, 2021
The value of the contract is identical to the amount allotted for the Bi-Annual Exception, so choosing to use the MLE instead suggests the Kings aren’t planning any other notable FA signings. Using the MLE keeps the BAE available for next summer (as the name suggests, the Bi-Annual Exception can’t be used two years in a row), but otherwise doesn’t help the Kings this year.
The Kings still have plenty of time to shake up the roster. Training camp won’t open until late September, and the first game of the new season is a full two months away. It’s assumed the Kings will continue to shop Buddy Hield and Marvin Bagley, and will continue to look for ways to improve the roster to finally end the team’s 15-year playoff drought.
If you’re worried that the current roster is going to be the opening day roster, I’d say that concern is warranted. I’m not hitting the panic button just yet, but from what we know of the NBA landscape, it’s getting harder and harder to see how the Kings could pull off a big change.
It’s not as if a Simmons or Siakim trade was ever likely to happen, so this isn’t much of a story.
As far as the roster goes, any changes will revolve around Buddy and Bagley. I think Buddy for sure is a King come game 1 and gets traded in season. Bagley I could see being moved before the season for another underachieving high pick like Bamba or Carter or perhaps workout a trade for Lauri.
Personally, I’m fine entering the season with the current roster, leave some trade chips on the table for in season moves.
Does anyone know if Bags added some lbs at all? Last season he looks the same as draft night. Perhaps some more weight/muscles can help improve his game i.e. trade value.
He looks a little thicker in his instagram workout pics. Not fat, but I’d say he’s no longer as skinny as he was a year or two ago.
Even towards the end of last season he was looking a bit more muscular and yeah, the instagram picture he definitely looks beefier.
This is part of why I hate drafting 19 year olds, particularly ones that don’t have NBA bodies from the start. If Bagley played two or three more years of college and came out looking muscled up like this his pro career could have started on much better terms even if it cost him (a lot of) money in the short run.
Never-mind if we could not land SImmons or Siakam……..
But the front office should still try hard to trade away Bagley and Hield and try to get the BEST deal/return as possible.
It’s just again “Addition by Subtraction”………
We would be a better team without both of them….
(team defense and team BBIQ dramatically improved)
I would suggest that the team improving by trading them away would be highly dependent on what came back in return.
Wait, that’s every trade.
Indeed, yet, if we need to trade for pennies or dimes to the dollar towards the deadline, it may just end up being the best thing to do. If neither have good seasons this year then I doubt their value will change for the better
“Just wait till the trade deadline, surely then Monte will be able to make his meaningful move.”
Absolutely how I feel. How long have we heard/felt that a big change was coming? I’ve lost all hope in it.
We’re depressingly starting the season with this weird as hell roster.
The good news is we might finally be able to see if Bagley can play small forward!
There might actually be a big change coming. Not in the sense of a star player but rather acquiring more defense-minded players. In addition to resigning Holmes, their new players from last opening day are Mitchell, TD, Harkless and Len. I think the fan opinion of Harkless will change this year like it did for Barnes, but more for his defense. We will appreciate how he handles guarding the opponent’s best wing/forward every game. Maybe Hield and Bagley will be dealt at the deadline also.
This season seems like it may be a carbon copy of last season. Winning less than 40 games, hoping for a deal at the deadline, wondering if this is the year Walton is finally gone, hoping next year’s #10 pick turns into a star.
It’s not easy watching a losing team every season, but something about losing and being utterly stagnant really eats at my fandom. Is anyone even trying over there at this point?
I 100% agree with you Carl. If the Kings fail to make a significant move before the start of the season, it’s gonna be tough to watch. Less than 40 wins is almost a lock with this sorry core of players, and questionable coach.
100% agree… another year of treading water.. I’m not a fan of making a deal just for the sake of making a deal, but eventually something noteworthy has to change other than via the draft…
Right now I tend to agree. I don’t really know how it’s going to work if they go into the season with Buddy in particular still on the roster. Bagley, despite all of his families posturing, doesn’t really have any value and at the very least plays a position where he’ll still get minutes and the Kings will need minutes. Buddy is just going to be in the way blocking either Mitchell or Haliburton which doesn’t help us at all IMO.
Don’t forget about Terrance Davis either. It would be pretty dumb to bench a guy you just re-signed. Currently the guard rotation looks to be way overcrowded unless they do intend to go with a three guard lineup most nights.
Seems like Kings have taken this ridiculous stance that they are a player away from the playoffs. So, rather than rebuild they hang onto all the pieces that led them
to nowhere and hope some incredible deal happens.
It idiocy brought to you by Vivek.
If only we could force teams to make trades with us.
If only we could trade for, draft and sign 5 centers….oh wait.
Your take is that Toronto & Philly won’t do deals with Sacramento because the Kings have too many centers?
No. That’s your strawman take on my take, per usual.
Good one!
So what is your take?
My take is Monte has for some reason amassed 5 centers via trade, free agency, and draft on guaranteed deals, which seems idiotic to me. 5 centers of which really don’t move the needle in terms of wins.
You are not considering the fact that Len can play some small forward.
You just don’t understand the plan. We are going to play 3 guards and 2 center lineups! Harrison Barnes will be considered a center for the terms of this discussion.
If making trades is outside this front office’s capability, maybe they’re the wrong people for the job. You can only blame the rest of the league for so long.
This front office has made trades, so I don’t understand your point.
Have those trades meaningfully improved the team? If not, then they don’t matter.
It’s a result-driven business (as most businesses). Monte won’t get accolades for “trying”, with the exception of a bunch of delusional Kings fans who refuse to criticize him.
Did you see how Memphis took on Beverly and managed to flip him for some nice assets? I wonder if we couldn’t have achieved something similar. Or still can.
Seems like there’s an assumption that if a trade is made , we’ll be better. This is a strange way of looking at things.
Honestly this is the part I don’t understand, if we are considering the assets Memphis got as being “nice”, but still consider the Kings to be morons.
Memphis trades Beverley for two guys (a bigger wing and shooting guard) that make about 13 million this year, while Monte traded one 2nd round pick and Bjelly and to get Davis and Harkless last deadline. Monte spent around 8 million to keep them for upcoming year.
Hernangomez is on the books for 7 more million next year. Culver an option.
Davis is clearly better than Culver at this point. Culver has flat out sucked. Maybe can turn it around. I would contend Harkelss is as useful as Hernangomez, they are both negative net players by BPM and VORP. Maybe Hernangomez slightly better.
My take, Monte got the best player of these 4 at the same positions and did it for 5 million less.
Just because one acquires a bigger name player and flips it for middling stuff, doesn’t equal achievement.
Memphis managed to get rid of the bloated contract of Bledsoe (who happens to be a net negative player in both BPM and VORP), and managed to break it into smaller contracts (Hernangomez’ contract is fully non-guaranteed for next season) and some intruiging cheap prospects in Culver and Oturu.
I don’t think Memphis is focusing on some advanced stats, but on how they created cap flexibility to build around their young core going forward.
See it now that it’s non guaranteed. Didn’t show that way on Bball Reference. Thanks
So yeah it’s just a salary dump to me then. The pieces they got back are immaterial most likely on that roster. Guess I don’t see a contract I’d deal like that for Kings unless it’s Thompson and he’s expiring.
They are up to something but not really sure what. I mean they got they got themselves into that Bledsoe contract to move up in the draft and not have to deal with JV’s upcoming free agency. Would seem they are positioning themselves for something larger, but ???
I agree, I don’t get this fan sentiment of wanting players traded just to be traded. A deal has to make sense for Monte to make. Giving away Buddy or Bagley for nothing makes little sense.
That’s basically it, and I still don’t believe that it’s even a tiny bit complicated. Unless there’s some evidence that McNair had advantageous or even equitable deals available, and passed on them or fouled them up, I can’t find any basis for these grand pronouncements that insist that the reason that Sacramento hasn’t acquired that guy is because of the General Manager’s incompetence/fear of change/paralysis.
And any of those might be true! I just don’t know, and I’m happy to admit it. I would certainly love to have that kind of confidence in my beliefs with zero evidence to support them, but I’m not built that way. If you have facts to support your take, I would love to see them. I don’t have greater insight or access to information than most of us here, so I may be reaching the wrong conclusion.
I’m perfectly capable of having my mind changed, but all I’m getting is the Sacramento Kings version of Intelligent Design.
It’s fun to harp on ol’ sims for asking for receipts, but honestly, it’s beyond me how one can be so sure of themselves without them. The results are the most important thing, but when they are less than ideal, it isn’t always a reflection of effort, strategy, or competence.
I don’t understand how in one breath one can point out that the Kings have less talent on the roster than the majority of teams, and in the next, demand that heads roll for not being able to spin what’s here into an all-star in trade.
I would file the sentiment under “bad team stays bad and fans unhappy.”
This is a team that finished 12th in the West last year. On paper, the “improvements” to the roster may not keep pace with OKC, Hou, or GS, just to name a few. The Kings have seemingly not closed the gap on anyone in the West. Maybe they are still better than Hou and OKC? On a relative par with Min, NO, and maaaaaaaybe SA? So if everything goes right (and I mean everything), #10 in the West? And any standard, run-of-the-mill, NBA season hiccup lands them back closer to #12.
But the results are the results, and it is how every professional sports team is judged. The NBA does not award participation ribbons. The Kings have stunk for 15 years, 8 straight under Ranadive’s ownership.
Better basketball – competitive basketball – relevant basketball – playoff basketball (you know, that thing that 53% of all NBA teams enjoy each year) – that is what will earn this organization some respect among its peers and fan base. Lacking that, you are left with the reality that this team has been a joke for some time and could very well be for some time more.
We are the verge of championship.
As soon as tonight!!
I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t think that it addresses my larger point. The results are absolutely the bottom line, and as is the custom, someone is going to get thrown overboard if they don’t improve. That’s how professional sports, and a fair number of other fields work.
I disagree with the premise that there was necessarily some thing that had happened where the Kings could have made a good deal, and simply declined to do so. Could McNair have countered DC’s offer of Westbrook by putting the #9 pick and/or Haliburton on the table (or Barnes, or some other actual asset)? There was nothing to stop him from upping his bet. Do any of us think that it would have been a good idea for him to have done so in order to get Kyle Kuzma and Montrezl Harrell? Speaking for myself, I sure as hell don’t.
In the end, it won’t matter if McNair does everything possible in order to break the worst professional franchise on Earth out of its seemingly endless cycle of crapola. If things don’t show considerable improvement, he probably gains a third year by hiring his own coach, but he could also be out the door in favor of…?
Honestly, I have no idea who could be had, and put it at 50/50 it’s BJax or Chris Webber. I wish I was being ironic.
His second twelve months could present opportunities to shake things up and add That Guy, and it could still all go to shit. I don’t believe that McNair is averse to rolling the dice on a big opportunity, but he’s also not going to be taken advantage of and accept a lopsided deal (one hopes).
McNair has done some things that I’ve liked, and other things that I’m not clear about, like the Thompson trade. Could be part of something bigger, or maybe it was Holmes insurance. He handled Holmes’ free agency damn near perfectly, and if Thompson ends up being bought out because he’s redundant, then that will be that. Definitely not perfect, but also nowhere near incompetent.
The results will be what they will be, and McNair will sink or swim with them. That’s part of the job. All things being equal, this is an objectively better roster than Sacramento had opening night in 2020, and the fact that it doesn’t include an 1 or 1A guy at this point, to me at least, doesn’t suggest malpractice by the front office. It ain’t a playoff team, but better is better, and I think that we’ve all been Kings fans long enough to know that offseasons don’t always work that way.
I still think that the largest impediment is the head coach. McNair went on the record to back him, so that’s that, but I’m certain that Walton will be gone at the first available opportunity. My concern is that the timing will be determined by the owner, and not the General Manager.
It’s not unreasonable to demand results, but I don’t think that it can be done in a vacuum as if a person can make things happen unilaterally. As I’ve said over and over, if there’s some indication that McNair has biffed on good trade deals, not pursued the right free agents while over the cap, made an unabashedly stupid move, I have zero problem factoring that into my calculus. Until then?
And this is in no way directed at you, Rob: It’s all wish-thinking based heavily in Me Wantee.
I want this team to succeed, and this failboat of an organization won’t be turned around quickly.
“But it’s been fifteen years!”
It doesn’t seem to me that anyone has bothered to effectively point the thing in the right direction until about a year ago. That’s a start-over timeline, and it sucks, but that’s where we are: Limited cap space, largely undesirable assets, and the worst head coach in professional sports.
I don’t like it any more than anyone else, but I do feel that McNair has what it takes to improve the results. He simply hasn’t shown me anything to indicate that he doesn’t know what he’s doing, and as far as I’m aware, his moves have been astute. I sure as hell don’t consider calling for his head after one year.
I respect your opinion, in the same manner that I respect the opinions of those that disagree with your take. And no receipts are requested or required. Thanks for taking my call.
The issue here is that you see this as black and white and it isn’t. There are ways to improve the team that don’t involve landing an all star.
The front office hasn’t done anything outside the draft to meaningfully improve the team in the short term, or create cap flexibility in the long term. Delon Wright was probably the best deal they made, and they almost immediately turned him into Tristan Thompson. Their non-draft activity is pretty much entirely tinkering around with bench vets.
Sure. But they’ve been on the job for a year, and yes, the assets suck. But that doesn’t give the front office a perpetual excuse to do little or nothing to meaningfully improve the team.
I mean true it doesn’t, but can they be on the job for one full year before they are defined as having as perpetually doing nothing to improve the team?
If they had whiffed on Hali last year and gone out and spent 80-90 million on Ball/Fournier/Duncan Robinson/Norm Powell to play a wing would that have been seen as making meaningful movement towards progress? I don’t see them being any better (without Hali), but I feel like some of us on here would think, that’s a positive change, taking the big swing and minimizing the fact that a pick was whiffed on.
I still contend that adding two quality players in the draft (which I think majority here think is possible) at the mid/late lottery is a big flippin’ deal, especially for this market.
For a franchise that has whiffed so often on those picks, to seemingly get players in back to back years that you control the rights of till the end of the decade, I think should be viewed as a real asset/feather in the cap when evaluating. They are not finished products or guarantees by any means, but I think most of us like the early returns. That stuff matters greatly to me, when evaluating a front office, especially only one year into it’s tenure.
You’re right. I didn’t intend to say they’re perpetually doing nothing. I’m saying they haven’t done anything meaningful outside the draft yet, and you’re not going to run a successful team if that’s all you can get done. Not getting deals made isn’t an excuse forever/perpetually, but perpetually hasn’t happened yet. That being said, this is a bad team, and there should be a real motivation for making it better. And yet here we are. The offseason isn’t over and I’m hopeful we see some real improvement, or at least long term flexibility.
I agree on Halliburton, and while the early returns on Mitchell look really promising, he’s going to have to prove himself on the floor (and actually find minutes) before that’s a win.
My issue is that if all you can get done is to build through #10 picks, it’s threading a pretty narrow needle to actually get better. And if you’re going to sit around waiting for unicorn trades every offseason, you better be awfully lucky, because the downside is you look like you’re not doing much to improve a bad team.
For sure. If over the next 2-3 they are just reallocating 5 mill dollar contracts around bench guys and adding a #10 pick, then yes destiny is likely not to change.
But as Kings and Country points out, I think there are more assets here than when they started last September and they haven’t hamstringed future flexibility with signings/trades. I think that counts for something when doing a short term eval like this.
That also means there shouldn’t be great expectations for drastic change and I personally am OK with that for the moment. I’d be decently pleased if they pulled off a 5-6 game improvement this year. Which I think is very conceivable.
I get other perspectives may want to see it happen quicker and it’s understandable…I just like the current direction (which has been tough to say for me the last 15 years), even if it’s not the fast lane.
I will give McNair credit for his drafting thus far. I’m not sure they’ve improved the team one iota via free agency or trades but I do think this team has more assets than it did because of the draft and that actually is a pretty substantial improvement from the last FO. I think Haliburton is going to be fantastic and despite the fact that I didn’t get the Mitchell pick at all, he is doing things in Summer League that should translate well to the NBA game. I watched Papagiannis and Thomas Robinson for 5 minutes in Summer League and I already knew they were busts.
Mitchell is doing his thing and calming nerves because so. He will be something in the league if just from his effort and mentality I suspect. That said his impact has caveats in not being 1 to 1 from summer league talent to the NBA considering his size and defense. The length physicality and speed will uptick and he doesn’t have the intangibles to fall back on. Im holding my breath more than I would for other prospects because so but thats a hesitance out of Mitchells control until then. He’s doing his thing at the level in front of them but his profile comes with inherent questions regardless.
Monte looks to not have duds and his late drafting is worthy of praise as well in the flyers selected. But it’s also fair to say the other players we were connected to this class have all made as much of an assuring case as Mitchell in Sengun and Moody.
Oh yeah I don’t have any idea if Mitchell will be better than either of the guys you mentioned or any of the guys that went right after him. I would have preferred Moody be the pick personally because I think his upside is higher at a more valuable position. But I feel pretty confident that Mitchell won’t be a bust (I think he will be pretty good if he can shoot relatively efficiently off the dribble) and that’s a pretty big improvement for this organization.
Since you’ve used the word a couple of times today, I’d appreciate your definition of “meaningful.” That may help me better understand where your goalposts are sitting.
Without them playing any games, and going only by the roster a year ago, have there been no improvements whatsoever by your estimation? I would contend that it has improved, which isn’t to say I think that they’re any more likely to make the playoffs. Eh, maybe a little, the defense really should be better. No way to guess how that’ll impact the win/loss column.
I’d guess they’ve possibly improved 2-3 games in the win column, which could easily go the other way if things don’t go the way they planned, or may be nothing at all depending on how much other teams at their level have improved. That’s not meaningful improvement.
Meaningful to me is that you’ve added additional core talent or can reasonably expect a leap from existing players, which leads to improvement of more than a few wins from the previous season.
Adding a core talent would be wonderful, although again, with my apologies, I’d need something like a firm definition to understand. I’m assuming that you mean a guy who would be one of the top three players on the roster. If that’s the case, who are some examples of that type of player? I’d put Siakam and Simmons in that category.
But was there any chance of obtaining a player of that quality at a fair exchange? I don’t think Siakam was ever seriously on the market, and Morey is completely overvaluing Simmons, as good as he is at most aspects of the game.
Younger players taking a leap would certainly help, and I’d suggest that Haliburton, and in a limited sample size, Davis, have shown that they may become very good players. If we’re talking about expectations for the upcoming season, and just in general, aside from acquiring these guys, I’m not sure what a general manager is supposed to do in order to help players take that step. Unless he’s not providing the kind of equipment or services to aid the player, I can’t figure how he’d have any control over the growth of a player. That’s Luke Walton’s job!
Ahhhh, shit.
perpetual, to me, means over and over again. This is Monte’s 2nd off-season, seems a bit premature. The Kings have, of course, perpetually sucked, but it has not been Monte’s perpetual fault.
As I said, I’m not saying they’re making a perpetual excuse, but that they’re not going to be able to keep doing it every year.
Where does this leave the Kings? Um. Where they always are? Bad team? No playoffs? No?
Porzingis, TJ Warren, or Brogdon if the Pacers can’t make those pieces work.
How about asking for Jerami Grant if the Pistons are committed to going full tank?
Do not want Buddy on this team!
Lauri Markkanen is also available in a potential sign and trade. He made multiple comments he doesn’t want to stay in Chicago. He’s basically a 3 point specialist big who doesn’t play defense, ALA Hield. 40% from the 3 for a big is impressive. I would probably just do a straight up Lauri for Hield swap to free up cap space and move our 3 point shooting to the PF slot.
Would also be fine with Bagley for Lauri.
Bagley for Lauri makes a ton of sense.
I think it’s a worth while trade for Chic to see if Bagley can pop playing outside of bb hell.
Love Lauri, but Kings seem to be in tunnel vision mode to improve the defense. Obviously Bagley doesn’t fit that either, but just saying, don’t think Lauri is on their radar right now.
This is the ridiculousness of the Kings. They are dead set on improving their D and yet they keep the coach who presides over horrible defenses
I’m pretty sure Buddy’s rebounding numbers are close to Markannen’s, and he’s never hurt. You want to pay Markannen the 20 million he’s asking for? How would the kings free up space with that deal?
LM is soft. And you can’t trade for him, because no one has hired him, which makes sense, all things considered. If they want to throw a portion of the remaining LME at him, I could probably live with it, but I’d want it to be no more than two years with the second being a team option.
He wasn’t a favorite in 2018, and nothing he’s done has been persuasive in changing my opinion.
I agree. I’d only take Markkanen on a discount. He is soft and has regressed the past two seasons His asking price of $20M per year is absurd. That being said, I could be talked into a two year $20M, deal with the second being a TO. At the guarantee of $10M you can kick the tires on him while possibly shipping out Bagley on his guaranteed $11M in a S&T. It would basically be a recycling each other’s trash.
The questions would be 1) Would Markkanen take that offer? 2) Do the Bulls want to try out Bagley? 3) Are the Kings that ready to dump Bagley?
Right, at this point I believe Lauri takes the best offer he can get because he burned bridges while thinking the Brinks truck would show up, but it never did. With Chicago’s lineup of Patrick Williams and Vucevic, having Bagley as a backup to both of them is not a risky move.
I’d not be comfortable offering him eight figures per year. There are a lot of reasons that he’s currently unemployed, and that seems like a number that would have the Kings bidding only against themselves.
It’s not inconceivable that someone might offer a contract like that, but I don’t want it to be Sacramento’s front office. Under the circumstances, I don’t think I’d want him for a dime over five million.
I’d only do it with the understanding that the Bulls take Bagley. That way for it’s basically just a straight swap. That money is already tied up in Bagley and we know what he can and cannot do, so it’s really just an opportunity to see if someone different fits and makes the most of a changed opportunity.
IMO, it’s really not costing the Kings anything then what they already have committed. Who knows, maybe Markkanen turns things around and looks like the 2nd your Markkanen that is worth eight figures.
To a much lesser extent it is like the Skal for Swanigan swap a few years ago. It just gives both teams an opportunity to take a test drive of something different.
From what I’ve read, the Bulls want a first round pick for Markkanen (which isn’t happening) and/or don’t want any long term money coming back. Bagley might fit that bill. He’s a young prospect they’d control the rights of but don’t have to commit long term money if they don’t want to.
Bjelly=Lauri and costs 2m.
Bjelly = 33 years old, is 6’10”, shot 37% from the 3
LM = 24 years old, is 7’0″, shot 40% from the 3
I’m not advocating for LM. Maybe if he reduced his per year contract demands by 75%-80%, I’d be happy with the front office taking a flyer on him.
Well if it doesn’t happen we can always fall back on hoping the Kings marginal players transform into stars. We got that shit DOWN.
Yup. Moe Harkless for DPOY, I’m calling it now.
Bingo. Feeding Vivek’s ego. Rather than rebuild and retool.
This is Daryl Morey knowing he’s got 6 weeks. He’s not getting Lillard or Beal, he knows it.
Whether or not the Kings can pull off a Simmons or Siakam deal remains to be seen, but it’s a guarantee that if Morey comes back to Earth there’s a deal that can be had.
It really comes down to how untenable that situation in Philly is. If it’s that bad, Simmons is gone. I’m guessing Siakam is of the belief Toronto can still be competitive, that’s why he’s not asking out.
As usual, if you don’t believe, you won’t believe. If you think acquiring Ben Simmons is possible, you will. Proof is in the pudding.
Can Simmons be had for less than Halliburton or Fox? I know you wouldn’t give up Fox. Would you give up Halliburton and a couple of firsts? And would Philly have any interest? I have to think the answer to the second question is no. They’re trying to get in the title chase, and I don’t think anything on the Kings except Fox helps them with that today, but curious about your take.
Nope. I’m not giving up Fox or Haliburton. Morey is living in fantasy land if he thinks he’s getting either. This isn’t Joel Embiid we’re talking about who, by the way, is signing the supermax.
Morey is posturing. That was the point of this piece. The question to me is what package he accepts, not whether Haliburton or Fox are included. Because they won’t be.
Barnes, Bagley and one unprotected FRP is my max offer. If Morey comes back to Earth, I might add another unprotected pick if a deal can get done in the next hour. 3 FRPs won’t happen. If it doesn’t seem like fair value, it isn’t. Fair value is a meaningless concept and a red herring. The Sixers aren’t getting equal value for a guy who can’t shoot outside 5 feet. This isn’t really that especially complicated. It’s going to come down to what package Philly gets that everyone can work with. I don’t know what Doc Rivers or Joel Embiid think, otherwise I’d give that answer.
Bottom line Morey put this out there in hopes that Lillard or Beal change their mind and force their way out in the next 6 weeks. It’s a hail mary but if you don’t take it you get nothing. Frankly I’d have been surprised if this kind of article hadn’t come out. It tells me things aren’t going well for Morey in his attempt to extract premium value for Simmons.
I would offer two FRPs + Bagley + Buddy for Simmons, unprotected. If Morey really does want to trade Simmons, that miiiight be enough if a Lillard swap falls through. Unprotected first from the Kangz are pretty valuable, historically. But he is definitely in fantasyland if he thinks he’s getting Fox for Simmons. That would be a straight swap at best, and if I’m the Kings, I may want something else back in return.
That would be my offer as well.
The Sixers IMO need Barnes more than Buddy. And I think Rivers will have a large say in how this deal goes down. Embiid, too.
I think Morey isn’t ready to make a deal but he’s on a clock. Once Simmons camp goes public, it’s over. Which they will if they want him out as badly as some have suggested.
The league knows Daryl Morey and his preferences. Until training camp is near, there’s no need to not posture. Once the clock is real, we’ll see a flood of information.
2 FRPs is too rich for Simmons, but the Kings need more talent than they got. If that’s what it takes to get a deal done, that’s what it takes. Simmons, shooting flaws and all, can really help the Kings. Especially if they are trying to get more up tempo. I think that’s a system that Simmons can thrive in.
Sure Minny, GSW and SA want him, but they don’t have the package of picks, young player and a ready now plug in play guy filling an immediate need that Sac has.
Patience is a virtue. I believed post deadline there was a 50 50 chance the Kings could resign Holmes using his EBRs, and I believe the Kings can acquire Simmons without using Fox or Haliburton.
I don’t think a deal gets done for another month though.
Wonder if it would have helped if we kept Wright and added him to the deal. If we do swing buddy/barnes, bagley and pick(s), won’t the sixers still need a point guard? I know Wright is not a starter, but he is quality and maybe that’s all the sixers would need at that point?
Maybe but I don’t think Wright had a strong shot at being included due to the money and roster factor. Unless Seth Curry is being moved to a 3rd team in that deal.
I don’t think the issue here is ball handling necessarily. I would suspect Curry and Tyrese Maxey are fine that way. They played at a 11th overall pace, had a 13th ORtg, 2nd DRtg. I wouldn’t be surprised if they try playing slower without Simmons to help them offensively. Especially if precision halfcourt sets are the focus without Simmons.
I guess it’s possible they could include Danny Green instead of Delon Wright, but I just don’t see it.
thanks.
Would you trade those same guys to GS for Wiggins, Moody,Kuminga, and filler? I would think yes you would. That said Philly would prefer that package. But Mitchel, Barnes, and Buddy might be a better offer, picks aside.
Honestly, the longer this drags on, the more likely it is that you can put some protections on those picks. I don’t think there is any way they can start the season with him still on the roster.
Appreciate the take. I just like Fox and Halliburton too much to want to deal them for a guy with serious question marks. That’s not a logical or even a basketball decision. I need something to hold on to with this team!
If I am going to trade any first round picks I need to see him on the floor first. And no protections is just a non starter. I could potentially offer one lightly protected, possibly. But to me any more than that is based on a paper resume in being an all star and premium defender, both facts with massive caveats. Perceptions I think subconsciously filled with Morey up-sale than anything else.
The facts are this is a very concerning basketball player, whose future as a worthy starter IMO is very much in question. The strengths and those concerns are potentially worthy of intrigue but then the contract enters the fold. Simmons in 2 years time might be unmovable if his flaws don’t improve.
I get the kings are desperate so I can rationalize some risk but I just keep returning to two sentiments in relation to Simmons. The first is why would I be doing this trade now, when his value is completely indeterminate with real potential signs of being disastrous. And two, in the packages rumored what players could be fetched with less caveats when picks and young assets enter the fold.
My gut feeling is that a deal centered around Lillard and Simmons has actually a decent chance of happening.
It seems to me that the road for Portland and Dame is almost at a dead end, and both sides know it.
Trust me. I have a sizeable gut.
Seems like a logical trade for both teams.
Philly just extended Joel, they were and are in win now mode and Dame would give them the best chance to win now.
Besides the push from Dame, what is the urgency for Portland? For a player whose value is indeterminate and likely will only continue to depreciate. Come January would that trade seem like fair value, I don’t expect so.
I get Phili’s urgency considering Joel and Doc’s public sentiments, but nobody in the league besides them have any reason to do this trade soon. Unless its for optics for passive fans in an acquiring an “all star” and number 1 pick. Simmons in actuality isnt resembling those accolades, despite being paid as much and looking good on a poster.
Props to Morey creating the fervor but this is a horribly negative contract for a player so specific in strengths and surrounded by questions looming over his future impact. Any package I expect could be pitched somewhere else for a more assuring return.
As long as Neil Olshey is the GM, that deal ain’t happening. I just don’t see it as much as others do. I think they are trying to convince Lillard to stay for a year and figure out which way is up.
I agree. I don’t think it has a decent chance of happening unless Olshey gets fired in the next couple months which would be weird considering ownership just let him hire a new coach. I think if Lillard gets traded (and he probably will at some point because that’s just how this goes now) it’ll be a year from now at the earliest. The Blazers have all the leverage in that situation and can still get max value for him because of the years left on his contract.
Also, is Simmons even what the Blazers would want if they do trade Dame? That’s the most attractive trade package? I’m willing to bet that if they move Dame they’ll want a million picks and they’ll try to bottom out for another star. I think the idea that Morey is just going to wait around for Dame to become available is a fairy tale that the Sixers front office is putting out there to try and drive Simmons value back up and I don’t believe that deal actually gets made for one second.
Oh I think if Dame is in the mix Philly will have to add several assets to Simmons. I never implied it was a player for player deal.
And I think Olshey is under a lot of pressure at the moment. The whole coaching search, Dame’s endorsement of two guys with tainted pasts and the faux due dilligence the FO did, as well as the underwhelming offseason may cause some things to change there sooner rather than later.
I think Olshey is under pressure but I don’t believe Dame actually has that much leverage on where he goes when and if he eventually does get traded. I think a lot of folks are assuming that the Blazers would want to reset with Simmons and McCollum potentially but I’m not sure that core is going to do anything other than get you to the 9th seed in the west. I think it’s more likely that Olshey can sell ownership on a hard reset and they move everybody and rebuild. That would potentially buy Olshey a lot more time than getting Simmons back.
I don’t think Olshey is dying to trade the best Blazer since Clyde Drexler. He’s going to make Lillard or ownership force his hand, because the alternatives are worse. And I doubt Jody Allen does either. She’s already been rumored of wanting to sell anyway, that might be a thing she might make Olshey hold off on until a sale is completed.
Ben Simmons isn’t really as great a get as some are making him out to be IMO. Valuable, but not hardly a centerpiece. De’Aaron Fox has a better shot at that than Simmons does IMO. That’s partly why a deal hasn’t gotten done yet.
I agree with this especially:
I think that if Simmons issue was simply that he wasn’t a good shooter it would be a completely different story, but what he did in the playoffs last year was the kind of thing that can sink a career. When guys appear to be mentally shot, people tend to get really nervous. At this point I just don’t know if Simmons issues are fixable and if he refuses to shoot the ball or even be aggressive going to the basket, what is his defense worth? And how much does that negatively impact his play making?
This is especially a problem for a team like PDX. Optics are a problem just trading Dame, and now you have to fix this headcase, too?
For Sac I think it’s a perfect fit. SA and Minny too, but their assets aren’t as good for Philly as Sac’s. That’s mainly because of their situation as well. Expectations are lower in these 3 places. (Same issue in GSW, but I think they don’t care because a legacy player isn’t going back. But I don’t see any way Philly wants Wiggins.) But for PDX? That’s a teardown waiting to happen IMO.
Great, great, great point FKC.
75/25 Simmons ends up in Portland. Question is whether it’s a deal centered around Simmons/Dame or Simmons/CJ. Portland’s leverage for a CJ deal builds every day that passes without a deal.
ding ding ding
I dont think this has any chance…PDX would be getting Simmons and multiple Philly picks which are basically 2nd rounders. They would be a worse team with no clear path to get better.
OKC has better shot at Dame if they package SGA and multiple frps.
The only issue I see with OKC getting Dame is the division aspect of it. Otherwise, I’d agree.
The problem with Portland trading Dame to a non-playoff team is that any team he is traded to will no longer be picking in the lottery.
Who cares? Right now it’s the fight for the championship!
One more look at Bagley is probably not the worst thing that could happen. Guys do turn around, he’s really young to give up on.
There doesn’t seem to be a place for Buddy, and I’m sure McNair is trying. But his contract is pretty rough, and giving up a pick or young player to move him right now would be a bad move imho.
Also, it’s possible we are stealth tanking. One more draft, one more year off the bad contracts, and maybe then it’s time to move.
Your take on the stealth tank is highly plausible. One more year off bad contracts (Barnes), and one more year of Luke, unfortunately. Then the Kings make some serious moves. It’s gonna take some time to move on from the Vlade era.
I’m glad they didn’t get Simmons. I wanted Siakam.
I’d say give Bagley one more year to prove himself at this point. No sense dumping him for nothing.
Hield is another story. I think he’s actually got decent value, but I don’t think Monte has the skill to engineer a clever deal.
I’d prefer siakam too. Seems like Simmons comes with his own unique variables that could make him a rough fit on some teams. Siakam is what he is. We know where and how he would play.
Philly can leak whatever the heck they want, but it definitely appears that all the bridges over there have been burned.
The Kings have no assets to trade for a good player compared to what other teams have. Hell, they can’t even compete with the Warriors in terms of young assets. They’ll continue to be mentioned as having interest in everyone because that’s what Vivek wants. Yet the team refuses to trade any of its current players for assets that could be used in a trade like this.
How is any of this different from the Pete D’Alessandro era? The team continues its treadmill of mediocrity chasing after the 8th/10th seed with no clear direction while leaking interest in stars that we have no real chance of acquiring.
They have one of the 3 best shooters in the NBA on a declining salary, a lottery ticket in Bagley, and the historical track record of high draft picks in a stacked conference to offer.
Unless the dubs are trading Kuminga, Moody, and Wiseman, what do they have to offer?
Are the Wolves trading Edwards? Their picks would be just as valuable as the Kings’.
The Spurs have a bunch of young role players. Why would the Sixers want that?
D’Alessandro was an utter disaster, surpassed only by the next guy, but he did manage to land Rudy Gay five months into his tenure.
Oh, you wrote TEnure. My mind read something else at first when you were discussing D’Alessandro’s shitty run.
Part of me feels McNair got off to the same start that Pete did. Pete let IT walk for a box or rocks while McNair let Bogi walk for nothing.
I think that’s true. A lot of teams look at the Kings assets, and don’t see a lot of value, outside of Fox, Hali. The Kings may be overestimating their trade pieces, therefore no deals, or deals that seemed to be materializing, and fell through.
Kings payroll now at $132M by my count. And they lost $100M last year. I don’t the partners and Vivek will like trading oranges for oranges in a Buddy trade: Buddy’s $20M for a $20M player puts them where they started. How about a likely lottery pick in 2022 for Buddy? This lightens both the payroll and the jam up at the guard position.
Other ideas: deal Bagley and Thompson (25% 3pt career) for second round picks? That’s $20M off the payroll. And allows Louis King on the roster.
So then you have to find a team that still has the cap space for his contract, which I don’t think exists.
The Kings don’t have to find roster spots for King or Queta. They are both on TWCs (two way contracts). Right now the Kings have 15 roster spots filled.
I’m seeing the depth chart of having Holmes, Len, Thompson, Jones and Queta (TWC) on the roster at C. Queta is a project who will mostly be in Stockton, and I think the guy likely traded before camp or during is Jones. They may need more reliable depth at C over the season which is why they acquired both Len and Thompson.
I know I’ve said in recent days I expect TT to be traded or waived/bought out but I think the plan is to keep him for 800-1000 minutes. If they need to move on, they can waive him and use Queta as needed for those spot minutes. There’s 3,936 minutes at C. Let’s say Holmes plays 30 MPG in games (both would be career highs for Holmes), that would be 2250 minutes total. That’s almost 1700 minutes left for Len and Thompson to split, and that’s assuming all goes well!!! When does it ever?
Of all the concerns I have over this roster, the depth chart at C isn’t one of them.
Agree that Thompson was acquired to play. I don’t see why we have so many players at center, but whatever. It’s down the list of problems with this team.
The only thing I thought about for so many centers is if the Kings intend to run other teams off the court. If they intend to have a 3 guard lineup and push for record breaking pace, they may need to platoon their big men. To me It’s a plausible reasoning to why they are so guard and center heavy.
I could see that. No insight on their thinking, but is their plan to play a tiny three guard lineup and use two bigs to fill the inevitable defensive lapses? We’ll just make the average height of the lineup normal by having more/bigger bigs?
I’m with this mostly…Is Thompson great or average even? No. But he was mostly a net neutral player the past couple years in a starting line up. So I don’t think he is quite as big a bum as we say on here, no matter how much Bill Simmons hated him on the Celtics.
Thompson and Len does give some versatility behind Holmes. If other team has a monster in the middle, more Len. If opposing guy is more 4/5, then Thompson maybe. I don’t see them as totally duplicative.
TT was absolutely awful over the past 2yrs. He should NOT be allowed anywhere near the court.
Ahh. Convinced now 👌🏻
Well, to be fair there isn’t a great way to prove it as stats alone don’t show how he never leaves the paint on D, has slow feet and reactions… but below are some advanced stats plus a few comparisons.
Thompson
2019 BPM -1.5 // VORP 0.2 // WS 3.1 // PER 16.8
2020 BPM -2.6 // VORP -0.2 // WS 2.9 // PER 14.2
Bagley
2019 BPM -3.5 // VORP -0.1 // WS 0.4 // PER 15.6
2020 BPM -3.4 // VORP -0.4 // WS 1.4 // PER 16.3
Len
2019 BPM -1.0 // VORP 0.3 // WS 2.2 // PER 17.8
2020 BPM -0.4 // VORP 0.3 // WS 2.7 // PER 16.9
Holmes
2019 BPM 1.0 // VORP 0.9 // WS 4.9 // PER 19.7
2020 BPM 0.3 // VORP 1.0 // WS 6.1 // PER 20.2
TT is better than Bagley but worse than Len and no where close to Holmes while also nearly costing as much as Holmes ($9.7M vs $10.3M). I would rather see D. Jones and Queta get any minutes that might be thrown TT’s way.
Great you established he is below average…which I conceded in the original point. His numbers are pretty damn similar to Jones, who he is essentially replacing in my mind most likely. He does have more ability to guard a 4 than Jones. I think his “value” if there is such a thing is in the fact he is not the same type of big man as Len, which Jones is.
Two missing stats are how were the teams when they were on the court or off it. TT was +1 when on the floor last year. Jones was -5.4. TT was net neutral when compared ON/OFF. Jones was -4.8
Quite honestly the angst on here over the past few weeks about Tristan Fuckin Thompson being a likely 3rd center on the team is wild. Was it the best deal, doesn’t feel like it. But it doesn’t move the needle one way or the other likely. Monte feels differently probably, at least slightly.
It’s an expiring deal and they haven’t even found anyone to use all the midlevel money on, so having some extra 9 mill around doesn’t really do jack. On a 1-10 scale of important deals over Monte’s tenure the next few years, it’s a 2. At best.
Here we stay!
Every day in my news feed I see all these theoretical trades involving Buddy or Bagley. Why are Buddy and Bags discussed, and not the elephant in the room, Harrison Barnes? His contract is now a burden on the team, for basically an average player, at best. Maybe it’s too hard to move him now?
I spoke out about this trade from the beginning. He doesn’t move the needle, and his impact on the team since his arrival has been minimal, based on wins/losses alone. The front office had much higher expectations when they landed Barnes, to kind of put the Kings on the map, so to speak.
Can’t the front office do something creative with Harrison’s contract, and move on from this failed trade, in my opinion?
Barnes makes $20m this year, $18m next year. Given his productivity, his ability to play the 3 and the 4, and the ease in which he can assimilate to a role, he likely ranks ahead of MLE players making $10-12m a year. And given that the contract is basically an expiring a year from now, my guess is that he is zero burden to the Kings right now, and may actually have some application-specific value come the trade deadline.
Put another way, Barnes makes $38m over the next two seasons. Buddy Hield makes $62m over the next three. Comparing the two for talent and contract, Harrison Barnes ain’t the problem here.
Great points. A year ago Barnes was a bad contract, now he’s actually an asset with solid trade value; his stock increased a lot last season.
The three B’s will make for solid trade fodder during the season.
This seems particularly relevant to me because it sure doesn’t appear to be coming from the Kings.
I have believed through out this entire discussion that Fox is a more valuable asset than Simmons and this seems to suggest that’s the case. With the drafting of Davion Mitchell, I am more willing than ever to explore Fox trades. If the Kings could trade Fox for Simmons plus another asset I think they should absolutely consider that. I think a core of Mitchell, Haliburton and Simmons probably fits a little better than a Fox, Mitchell, Haliburton core. We’ll see how it shakes out.
I get the sentiment on the preference on cores and almost agree on it…but I think losing Fox for Simmons creates a different set of problems. Personally I don’t see Hali having the ability to be THE playmaker when it gets tight end of games. Lack of either one of elite athleticism or strength/bulk makes that a tough transition to me. I’d be surprised if he ever averaged 5 FT’s attempts a game. Doesn’t mean he can’t be an amazing secondary creator or more featured in certain matchups or situations.
I think Fox can do that and has done it to a small degree last year. The ability to get into the lane and breakdown a defense/get to the FT line is vital and I am not sure where that is coming from with the Non Fox core.
I also don’t love a Simmons/Fox combo…so I am kinda just not a huge fan of a Simmons deal overall.
Where do we go from here?
11th seed. KaNgZ baby!
Obviously a lesser talent, but does anyone think we could pry Miles Bridges from Cha?
Maybe for Bagley. Honestly don’t know much about Miles or his value.
HIs value is hard to pin-down because CHA have relegated him to the bench behind G. Hayward. I think it would take Buddy, at least 1 FRP and taking some salary back.
The panic button is a worn as the vowels on my keyboard.
Alex Len was signed using part of the MLE because of the hard cap. Using the BAE would hard-cap the Kings at the tax apron, which is $136,606,000 this season. As Bobby Marks pointed out, that puts the Kings at about $6.5 million below the tax apron. So if the Kings used the BAE to sign Len, the Kings could only use $6.5 million of the MLE anyways, and be hard-capped to boot. This way the Kings have the flexibility to go over the tax if they wanted to (ha) and still hold on to the BAE next year, all for just losing $1 million in value of the MLE. Actually a pretty good move, especially if you’re expecting to make a trade that takes in more salary than is sent out.
Is there even one legit star who didn’t make the playoffs in his first four years in the league? Short of a big move, this will be Fox’s fifth.
I think there are quite a few, actually. Jimmy Butler comes to mind, so does Devin Booker,
I haven’t read the comments yet but I’m going to go out on a limb and say that I’m OK going into the season with the current roster. I think it could be a .500 team.
It could if everything falls into place and all key players improve ! More likely this is a 11th or 12 th place team in the west ! Hope you are correct but doubt it !
Perhaps the other teams are still trying fleece interested teams (like Kings), while Monte is not biting until the right price is settled?
I mean trying to guess is a forever Kings game, however if anything, Monte seems like a calculated dude…albeit overly quiet.
He still has time to prove his worth…as for Walton, I feel his get out of jail card (sticking with him last year) has ran out. He needs to show significant improvement, otherwise Monte should be like, yep – I get to pick my coach now.
Of course, wait and see.
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