The Kings were on the receiving end of a late gift heading into tipoff this afternoon. Rockets star James Harden went through warmups, but was a late scratch with a right ankle sprain he suffered at the end of Thursday’s 122-119 victory over Sacramento when he collided with John Wall on a congested inbound.
This is the play from Thursday night where James Harden hurt his ankle. pic.twitter.com/tLAZFF8VKw
— Salman Ali (@SalmanAliNBA) January 2, 2021
So James Harden is out for the Rockets with a sprained ankle, and Tyrese Haliburton is out for the Kings with a bone bruise in his wrist. That sounds like an even trade to me.
The game started with a wild offensive flurry from both teams. The Kings had no answer for Christian Wood or John Wall, who continues to look pretty damn impressive considering the severity of injury he’s coming back from.
With Haliburton out of the lineup, Luke Walton subbed out Fox a bit earlier than usual and in those difficult minutes without an above-average creator on the floor, Buddy Hield really came through and carried the offensive load until Fox checked back in. Fox looked damn near unstoppable in his second run and finished the quarter with 10 points on perfect 4/4 shooting from the field.
The first quarter ended with an even 36-36 tie. No defense was played. The Kings dominated the paint with a 22-8 points-in-the-paint scoring advantage, but the Rockets dominated the perimeter with scorching 6-12 shooting from beyond the arc.
The Kings fell behind in the 2nd quarter thanks to a Haliburton-less bench unit that struggled to get anything going offensively. Houston really outplayed Sacramento for a significant run here and extended the lead to 7, but Marvin Bagley, who struggled mightily in the first quarter, came alive late in the 2nd and helped the Kings brute force their way to a tie with relentless pressure in the paint. Spacing is always going to be an issue with the Richaun Holmes – Marvin Bagley frontcourt, but they have, on occasion, made up for that lack of space with total paint control, and we saw that again here to close out the half. 64-64 going into halftime.
The Kings got a significant break to open the 2nd half as Christian Wood picked up an early 5th foul and had to sub out. Unfortunately the Kings couldn’t take advantage of Wood’s absence, and instead got cooked by John Wall repeatedly. Buddy Hield’s shooting once again kept the Kings within striking distance, but the Rockets had some early momentum here thanks to Wall’s dominance. Sacramento’s defense was just incredibly lazy here. There were several instances where Wall was already at the rim before the Kings had their defense set, and often resulted in an easy bucket for the Rockets or an out-of-position foul. I don’t know how much of this was Wall returning to form vs. the Kings turning in a truly pathetic defensive stretch, but they had no answer for him all night.
Sacramento was able to salvage the quarter in the closing minutes after Wall subbed out and the Rockets offense was forced to rely on a struggling DeMarcus Cousins. Fox picked his game up with Wall on the bench, and what was a 7-point Rockets lead quickly shrunk to 2 heading in the 4th quarter. 83-81 Rockets.
The Kings were completely stuck in the mud to start the 4th. The Rockets kept scoring and extended the lead to 11, the largest lead for either team to this point. I’ve said this on multiple occasions in this recap already, but man the absence of Tyrese Haliburton was felt on the Kings bench unit all night long.
Houston never lost control from there, and the second half against the Rockets tonight was the worst half of basketball we’ve seen out of the Kings all season. There was no creativity offensively, and no urgency defensively as Houston walked to the paint for layup after layup without much resistance.
Sacramento scored 64 points in the first half, but could only come up with 30 total points in the second half, including a putrid 13-point 4th quarter.
It’s also worth noting here that Marvin Bagley didn’t see the floor as part of the crunch time rotation again tonight. That is becoming a trend for Luke Walton, and while I can’t argue that he’s earned a crunch time spot with his play, Bagley’s development is something we’re all watching closely, and yes, it’s still very early, but there hasn’t been a lot of good things happening there.
On that note, in what is sure to spark more discussion than a terrible early-season loss to the Harden-less Rockets, Marvin Bagley’s dad has requested a trade for his son before the final buzzer. The tweet has since been deleted, but screenshots live forever.
lol what a tool pic.twitter.com/ZYHWVYsEwe
— Greg (@gwiss) January 3, 2021
Remember when the Kings were 3-1? That was cool.
You’re missing your 2nd best playmaker to start the game and your offense has stalled to a complete fart in the middle 3rd and early 4th and you don’t tell your $160 mill PG
“Hey I’m gonna play you 40 minutes tonight, you’re the only one working tonight go get us a win.”
Not blaming Fox, this is all on Luke. Fox played 38 min OPENING NIGHT, it’s not like he can’t play more in close games!
So frustrating how Fox has been babied his whole career in the minutes department.
Lost opportunity to steal a win without Harden tonight. Give credit to the Rockets they worked their butt off tonight. Sterling Brown, Nwaba and Jae’Sean Tate are all effort guys who won this game. On to the next.
Especially in a season where the schedule has been dramatically softened in terms of b2b and travel.
He’s 24th in the league in MPG. He’s playing plenty. The Kings are leaning heavily on their starters overall. Fox, Barnes and Hield are all in the top 25 in MPG.
I get that they’ve been playing a lot this season but his whole career so far he hasn’t avg more than 32 mpg.
Consider the circumstance of this game. We know the Kings are not tanking, you just lost a heartbreaker in game 1. It’s game 2 and Harden is out. Your win probability just went up. Don’t tell me they are better without Harden as some ppl in this chat believe, come on he’s the reason they came back on Thursday and he hit the dagger.
It was important to leave Houston with a split, De’Aaron was the only playmaker out there, let him win this game for you. Guys like Brogdon and Sabonis played over 39 min against the Knicks last night. Without Haliburton, you definitely needed Fox to go at least 38-41 like he did in the opener. Look at the 3 min to start the 4th, they went on a 9-0 run. Every minute mattered.
I don’t think anyone here said the Rockets are better without Harden. They said they’re still better than the Kings without Harden.
And I think you’re putting way too much emphasis on a single game early in the season. And, perhaps, overstating Fox’s impact. I mean, he was a -9 for the game. Which, you’ll notice, is more than the margin of loss.
Definitely not you, but I’ve seen the Harden argument in this thread.
I for one think we can hover around .500 for the whole year and battle for the play-in. So every game should matter even this early in the season.
I do respectfully disagree about your plus/minus argument, Barnes was also a -9 and Guy was a +6 but Fox and Barnes were clearly the most effective players last night.
Fox got us to within 2 at the end of third, took him out for the start of the 4th and we were down 11 and he came back in at 8:30. Why couldn’t he have just played the whole 4th?
It was just the narrative of this game and I hope the team learns from it and Fox gets even more minutes in close games. On to the next game.
Fox was still in when we went from down 2 to 8 or 9 at the beginning of the 4th. He sat for around a minute and came back when we were down 11.
Double checked to make sure I wasn’t totally full of shit.
9:57 left in the 4th, Hield enters for Fox. Kings down 8.
8:37, Fox enters for GRIII. Kings down 11.
from that point on Fox went:
1-5 (2 shots blocked)
1 reb
2 ast
2 TO
1 block
2 fouls
Annnnddd we’re back on track for the tank. Currently in the 8th seed but it looks like just two games off from the worst record in the league in the early going.
Adding a top five pick to a core of Fox and Hali is most important. Bagley has killed any hopes already these first few games that he’s part of a long term core and Buddy is eventually out of here.
Keep that tank rolling.
Bags is never going to be anything more than he is. I see no growth in the right direction.
listen to his dadplease trade him.
if Bags goes we know Vivek isn’t meddling. Bags is the anti-Hali. Makes the team worse.
a top 5 with Hali would be awesome. Kid is SOOO the real deal. Love him.
Indeed I can get behind a potential big 3 of Fox, Hali and a top five pick in 2021.
Don’t think they can get Top 5 though, as Haliburton is a one anti tank.
A one MAN anti tank.
Hali is not enough to keep us from landing towards the bottom of the Western standings by the end of the season . I have no problem with trading Marv, but he’s not going to bring back much. IMO hr’s only going to be a more polished version of what he is now.
That’s not enough to take the Kings to the next level and whatever he brings back in a trade is not going to be close to his draft position or to bring back a player who’s gonna become what Vlade must have hoped he’d become. No real loss in trading him, no real benefit either.
This team is too good to get a top 5 pick though. They will likely be in the 10-15 range again.
We have to hope we lucky in the lottery.
As currently constructed yes but tank season doesn’t start until the trade deadline has ended and all the unrealistic feel good stories have settled snapped back to reality. We’ll most likely be at or near 500 ball club until we go sell everything at the trade deadline. As long as we are a bottom 8 team there a chance
Totally agree. This team is better than expected. Sure, they should have split with Houston. From my standpoint, we should have won both. That’s a weak mentality. If Luke does not have this team ready to winevery night,then he needs to fuck off. This team needs to get to a mentality that going into every game, they know they will win. And if they don’t, then at least they left everything on the court. I am always on board with a winning mentality. That tank shit is weak.
These guys are professionals and should have some pride.
It’s weird that Bagley’s ceiling is now Christian Wood
Would anybody not prefer Christian Wood? That guy is playing well. That’s a bummer of a realization, but it is what it is.
I called Haliburton the anti-Bagley a few days ago and got mainly downvotes.
Interesting to see how the sentiment apparently has shifted in a few days.
LOL. This team isn’t tanking.
It’s almost like the team can’t score when it only has one player that can create a shot for anybody. Who would have guessed? Losses like tonight remind me why Vlade was such an abject failure as a GM. For a guy that was such a good passer and creator it is amazing to me that he somehow didn’t know that is what it takes to play high level offensive basketball. I am hopeful that Monte understands that and the Haliburton pick gives me hope that he does.
Speaking of Haliburton, with the information we have through 5 games, I think he’s the best player on the team. Might seem like a hot take but I suspect by the end of the year it won’t be. Watching this team try to do anything without his steadying hand in the 4th quarter was just awful. And if he has to miss any significant time forget it. We are not going to win very often without him on the court.
Monte will truly prove himself with what he gets for Buddy and Bagley. Having those two on the court on the same time is death.
Having Bagely in court w anyone is death. Fucks up D and spacing in O. If this was 1990 he’d be decent/of some value.
I would put Bagley in the gym every single day with Haliburton and I wouldn’t let him leave until he runs pick and roll 500 times.
Bagley rolls before the defender ever gets to him. Seems like one practice of let the guard’s defender get to you and makes his choice before you pop or roll is all it would take. But no progress yet.
Yeah and that has me wondering how he is practicing. There have to be guys on the coaching staff who understand this right? This is really simple stuff that I learned in 6th grade and yet he is rolling too early EVERY SINGLE TIME. Unless he really just can’t pick this stuff up I think these things would be pretty easily fixable which is also why I’ve got some hope he can at least figure a couple things out.
Yeah that stood out to me too. He has a complete lack of fundamentals, it’s crazy.
Agreed. He slips the screen WAY to earlier. Damn, it least make the screen look believable.
This seems like a summer project to me.
Summer can’t come too early around here.
At least I can breathe in wintertime.
My eyes tell me the same thing… but smallish sample size and prior to tonight, the Kings are actually positive net ratings (dramatically in some cases) in almost all top 2,3,4 and 5 man line ups with Bagley on the floor. Especially when you contrast to last year when EVERY line up he was in was a net negative. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/baglema01/lineups/2021
I would want to see way more than 70-100 minutes of these combos to make any judgements, but it is surprising to me. Are we just completely overly analytical when it comes to Buddy and Bags? I lose it every time a stupid Buddy turnover or Bagley gets stripped while going up for a shot. Does it influence how we evaluate other parts of their game that may be effective?
I don’t know what the answer is but putting it out there…
As you note above, none of these stats really mean anything yet.
I agree. Way too early to be sure Bagley won’t pan out. Firstly, I doubt his trade value is very high right now anyway. Do we really want to trade a guy who was a consensus top 5 pick whose young and hasn’t played a complete season yet for a future 2nd rounder? Let’s continue to put time into him as a project and give him a ton of minutes. If he improves, we’ll keep him or he’ll at least be a more valuable trade asset. If he stagnates, we’ll really know what we have. This is the season to really figure this out.
Agree about Vlade. A piece of shit GM from the jump.
And agree Hali may be the best/most valuable King soon.
The fact Vlade lasted like five years says all you need to know about Vivek. Still hard to believe how long Vivek stuck with him.
Even just hiring Vlade in the first place was a questionable move. How was he ever qualified to run an NBA team?
Yeah I remember everyone questioning the wisdom of hiring Vlade. I know some folks were just happy that Pete D was gone. “He can’t possibly be worse right?” Welp…
I remember something Carmichael Dave told Greg when he was still doing the podcast. He basically said he would have hired Sam Hinkie because he was a nerd, like the owners, but in Hinkie’s case he knew much more about basketball.
I think about that comment and I wonder if that applies to Monte McNair. Because it certainly seems like it to me, but the obvious qualifications apply here: I’m not really familiar with the dynamic. Thus could be misreading the tea leaves here.
Yeah I’m certainly not either but it seems plausible at least.
This is not true.
Many commenters were very happy with Vlade as a smart basketball mind and were referring to his experience as president of the Serbian Olympic Comity. I kid you not.
To be far, wasn’t originally hired to be the GM.
Oh sure there were some but I don’t remember it being the majority. I could be wrong though. I just remember thinking it seemed insane to bring in a guy with no experience who never really seemed to show any aptitude for working in a FO.
He played on the Glory Era Kings and has his jersey retired. That was his qualifications.
I wish I were being funny, but I’m not.
I apologise in advance this time for being a dick.
I keep reading the word ‘qualification(s)’. I believe the word meant is competency.
By all indications, I don’t believe there to be an official exam, course or specific requirements set by the FO to hiring a GM. If I prove to be wrong, I am happy to eat crow.
Vlade has very well proven to be the wrong guy, however I would have no issue if he was an assistant GM and groomed to the GM position in hindsight (and furthering that hindsight, probably would not hire him, or give him a much shorter/tighter leash).
Just my 2 cents and sorry again for the OCD/being anal (I think I kept reading the phrase multiple times over the a handful of posts – the last one was that one straw too many).
On a typical job description, it lists “qualifications”. Qualifications doesn’t necessarily mean you have passed an exam. ____years of experience is one example of a qualification.
If qualified simply means that you have held the job title in the past, then in that case Monte McNair isn’t qualified for the job, either.
But Kosta’s point that you don’t have to pass an exam is reasonable. Another is that you have other experiences not necessarily in the field that apply to the current position you’re being hired for.
Vlade was never competent in the job, either, but he was never qualified to begin with. He should have never been sitting in the chair. I don’t blame him for trying, but I do blame ownership who should have never put him there as they did.
Vlade was hired to appease the fanbase, but this ownership also kept trying for quick fixes that weren’t happening. They wanted a playoff team for the new arena by hook or by crook. And they were willing to do ill advised things to get them that (like making a horrible dumb trade with Philly) in an attempt…..to sign Wes Matthews.
Qualified GM’s don’t make the JJ Hickson deal to free up cap space for Wes Matthews let alone the Philly deal. Qualified GMs know that you can get those type of players cheaper and easier than through Free Agency.
One of the problems with this ownership I’ve found is they try too hard to make a point, and get defensive when people who know more about the NBA they do, like the media and some fans, point out easy to spot flaws in the logic. Another issue is trying to please people (like matching Bogi) when your FO is saying no.
As far as I can tell, Monte McNair has already had a more successful offseason than Vlade Divac ever did. A) the Kings did not stretch Jabari Parker in some vain attempt at marginal cap room for players that didn’t move the needle B) is attempting at building for the long haul making high value sustainable decisions like not signing a RFA when trade value (and I’m not talking Bogi only, it also includes Barnes and Hield too) doesn’t line up for you to match immediately and C) didn’t break the bank to sign players like GRIII and Whiteside if they couldn’t get a young guy who was more aligned with the future like Gary Trent Jr.
Vlade Divac whether you thought he was a good hire or not at the beginning (I thought it was stupid, short sighted and typical of this group — but I was very sour on ownership then as I am now) clearly wasn’t the best choice available. That isn’t meaningful towards Vlade, he didn’t hire himself. Ownership did. If they can’t learn that sometimes fans just aren’t going to like you today for moves you make (not firing someone, let someone walk in FA etc etc), then this team has no shot of any success moving ahead. You cant succeed in the NBA without owners learning how to take criticism, and not taking it personally at that.
This ownership group gave Vlade carte blanche to do things he wanted that didn’t make a ton of sense to a lot of people. If this ownership group gives McNair that same carte blanche, this team will be a lot better period. Because at least some one with qualified relevant experience who has appeared to be a lot more competent is now doing things that make sense and that line up with how the NBA actually works as opposed to doing things in the way you think they should work.
Quibbling about whether Vlade was qualified or incompetent is not the point, not even close. The qualification part is always dicey when talking about FO’s. It’s not that important in actuality IMO as that’s up to interpretation. The problem with the qualification point I was making is that was that seemed to be the main basis of why Vlade was hired: His history with the fanbase would smooth things over when there were moves that people would disagree with in the interim. And there was no reason to believe that after the Philly trade that competency would follow down the line.
Having said that, the question at this point is whether or not there’s someone sitting in the chair ownership won’t flip out at when they get bad news from that person. Monte McNair has previous experience that suggests he’s at least qualified to sit in the chair he’s currently in. His moves suggest a plan, regardless of agreement or optics, that are seemingly about moving forward. That at the very least is a major improvement over the Vlade era when hope and bubble gum seemed to be the plan for success.
That is all cool.
I am not disagreeing with your views on the current or past FO (I pretty much agree with all that). I was merely paraphrasing the actual definition of the word
(Qualification – 1 – a pass of an examination or an official completion of a course, especially one conferring status as a recognized practitioner of a profession or activity or 2 – a condition that must be fulfilled before a right can be acquired; an official requirement).
Without applicable defined criteria to count as satisfactory qualification for the role, one can’t be qualified/not qualified for the role. We are judging their overall competency for the role, but as far as any of us know, there is no set ‘qualifications’ for the role. I very much doubt there is this process for FO selection. Each organization seems to pick niche personnel from diversified fields, then gain ‘experience’ around the league long enough and become promoted into senior BBall GM positions.
If there was criteria set stating the GM position requires qualification in such course or have to pass certain criteria to become hired, then that is a different discussion.
For Example, for a head coaching gig, if the criteria defines the role to require a level 4 Basketball couching course or equivalent – then that can determine if the applicant is qualified/not qualified for the role.
As far as we all know this does not occur for Bball GM’s or at least for Sacramento (I can’t tell for certain witout working within that realm, however I very much doubt it based on the little dribble we hear/read). As mentioned, Vlade had prior experience with Olympic Committee which gives him some level of experience that may meet some of the job criteria, but not necessarily a qualification. Therefore his competency is judged based on his prior experience (Ability to do something successfully/efficiently). Vlade has thus far proven to be an incompetent GM, not a non-qualified one.
I am probably a bit too anal about this, since I deal with Contractor/Sub-contractor prequalification very often with my role.
Not hard to believe considering we know that Vivek is Vivek now.
“Speaking of Haliburton, with the information we have through 5 games, I think he’s the best player on the team. Might seem like a hot take but I suspect by the end of the year it won’t be.”
I’m sure you aren’t the only one who thinks this. I had same thought myself today. I don’t think we are a good basketball team without him.
certainly the most valuable.
I don’t think we are good basketball team with him to be totally honest but without him we are REALLY bad. That’s not a knock on him, I just think it shows where we are. Fox is a good player and we’ve got some decent role players in Richaun, Buddy and Barnes but that’s really all we’ve got. Sadly, Fox is miscast as a star when he’s a good complementary piece and the other guys are miscast as solid starters when they are probably bench contributors on a contender. That’s just how it is at the moment.
The good news is, Fox and Haliburton in the back court is something to build on IMO. If we can get an impact wing in the draft then I think we’ll have a good chance at improvement in the future.
We are on the same page, including Fox. As you say, he’s good, but not great, and isn’t showing any signs that will change. But Haliburton is a good fit with him, because he makes up for things that Fox doesn’t do that well. 2 years from now, Haliburton will be the star, the leader of this team, not Fox.
Yeah I don’t think there’s any question that Haliburton will be the leader of this team sooner rather than later. He already looks like he’s the one in charge when he’s in the game whether Fox is in or not. I actually don’t think it’s a knock on Fox necessarily although I suppose he’s on a max contract now maybe he’s supposed to be that guy. I think Fox would actually look really good on a team with other creators where he can focus more on getting his offense and creating havoc in transition. I just think he’s totally miscast as a 1A option. He’d probably look like fine as a secondary option though.
It is a knock on Fox.
That within 6 games it is clear that a rookie is a better floot general with a much better understanding of the nuances and flow of the game and superior D than your max player is a sobering thought.
I 100% agree and think this proves why Hali can’t start soon enough. With Fox playing off ball, his 3pt shot won’t be a threat but his catch and drive game will be when the ball is whipping around the court after a Hali-Big pickNRoll.
Fox going one on one in the half court when the defense is set has been hit or miss, but if he gets more catch and drive opportunities with Hali handling, that’s just gonna cause more problems for the defense. More drives to the rim and more drive and kicks to open shooters.
I mean sure, it is a knock on Fox but I don’t really fault him for the organization paying him to be something he’s not. It also doesn’t mean he can’t be worth the contract with the right pieces around him. I actually like Fox and see good things when I watch him play. I just think he’s more secondary creator than primary creator.
I think a few others here have noted it, but I think the potential of Fox and Haliburton as a combination backcourt is still pretty exciting, even if Fox isn’t a top-tier point guard. Looking forward to seeing them together for a full season or two.
I don’t think it’s clear at all until teams are actively game planning for Haliburton.
Look, I like the kid too, but some of the praise he’s getting after six games is over the top. Unless he’s a LeBron/MJ level talent, he’s going to take his lumps at some point.
Again, not a surprising outcome considering the talent disparity between the two teams. I’m glad they stayed in it rather than folding and losing by 25+. Definitely missed Haliburton’s presence. That makes 6 straight (regular season) games I’ve thoroughly enjoyed watching. I can’t remember the last time I said that.
Marvin is eventually going to have to comment on this bullshit from his pageant dad, or else his silence is going to look like an endorsement.
I’ll have to disagree on the talent disparity and I’m not just talking about Harden’s absence with I think shifted the level of talent into our favor. Brown, Tate, and Nwaba were not in NBA rotations last year. Our whole team was, minus Guy. Plus we’ve beaten the Nuggets twice and the Suns.
A game like this proves one thing: a difference in coaching. Silas took away the Holmes pick and roll and pressured the Kings “ball handlers” not named Fox.
Denver has only won 1 game. They look lost to start the season. We’re 1-1 against the Suns, who I believe are playing a bit above themselves.
Aside from that, we definitely differ on how we rate the roster talent.
Denver had Jokic twice and Murray once. Yes teams can be playing above and below their talent level based on chemistry, early kinks, etc, but strictly speaking on talent, Denver returns their WCF roster from last year minus Grant and Plumlee and we beat them twice.
By association we should definitely have been favored to beat a Harden-less Rockets team. Just my opinion.
Yeah, I don’t know. That seems too much like a “we beat X and X beat the Lakers, ergo we’re better than the Lakers.”
Not really. You guys think this Rockets team without Harden is better than our team? We are just strictly talking about today’s game right? We lost to them by 3 on Friday with Harden and 8 tonight without.
Did we not drop the ball tonight? Am I missing something?
Yeah I think they are. I think if we had Haliburton we’d be better and we probably would have won. I honestly think on a team with so few play makers, when you lose one, you’re basically screwed. This roster is just so flawed in it’s construction, that when you remove one of the two main engines on offense the team is prone to go in the tank because nobody is creating open shots. The defense wasn’t great but it wasn’t terrible either. The issue was nobody could score.
I think Christian Wood and John Wall are better than anybody that was on the court for the Kings tonight for what it’s worth.
This is ultimately the issue:
Yep that is definitely the issue and will continue to be until the talent base improves. Grabbing Haliburton is a huge step in the right direction thankfully and his absence tonight was glaring.
I’m legit confused, are you trying to make the argument that Houston is a better team without Harden?
No I’m not. They’re a better team with Harden and we lost to them by 3 but then we lost tonight by 8 when they didn’t have Harden.
And I’m addressing your original point that this team without Harden was more talented than our team tonight.
I don’t understand that.
We should have won tonight.
Would just slightly change your statement to “we could have won tonight”. The game was never out of control but the Kingz just couldn’t suck it up and play like they have in previous wins and it’s just not Hali’s absence tonight.
I agree. We shouldn’t have won, as we’re not there yet, but our win probability definitely increased without Harden
And the other night.
Well, that was all star John Wall that we got today. They had the best player on the floor. But his supporting cast did better than ours as well. It looked so bad but it really wasn’t. 36-36, 28-28, 17-19, 13-19. This should’ve been a blowout. That defense is real! I’m happy with this.
Yeeeaaaahh, sports don’t really work that way.
Houston had the best player on the floor today. Outside of that, the talent levels were pretty equal.
It’s the end of the Rockets rotation that levels the playing field for me and they outplayed our guys tonight
Nwaba, Tate, Sterling B., a rusty Cousins vs Cojo, GlennRob, Bjelica. We all criticize our guys, but our guys have been consistent rotation guys for a majority of their careers, you can’t say that about the Rockets bench. They just played harder. Give credit to them.
Yeah, but that’s just one game. I’d say generally, I like the Kings depth of talent better than Houston’s.
The NBA isn’t really a league of depth though. I mean, assuming you have the high end talent, depth is better than no-depth. But without the high-end talent, depth is pretty much moot.
Absolutely.
Definitely missed Haliburton but Buddy was awful. He has to shoot better and be better with his decision making when he has the ball. The Kings looked lost when Fox was out of the game. Really confused on what’s happening with Bagley. He’s looked good in spurts and was very active early especially on the boards. Showing some good post down moves although needs to be cleaner with his finishing moves. 6′ 10 guys with that kind of athleticism and agility are rare. Patience is the word right now.
The Rockets could be the sleeping giant of the league if the Harden soap opera gets resolved. Wall and Wood are huge additions. With some time I think Cousins will also make contributions.
For an elite scorer, Buddy hasn’t had a breakout game yet. Going into tonight’s game I was thinking we’ll need 30 from Buddy. He looks off this season, and I can’t wait to see what we can get for him at the trade deadline.
In no way is Buddy elite. Lou Williams is the most elite non all star scorer so he’s the standard.
Buddy cannot create for himself, finish at the rim, and get himself to the line. He’s a streaky shooter at best.
He isn’t really an elite scorer. He’s an elite shooter.
I wonder how much of that has to do with the extra energy he’s spending on the D. He has been chasing good scorers all 6 games.
I’ve wondered about that, too. But at some point, he has to be able to play well on both ends of the floor.
Steph and Klay run around for 35 minutes all game and have heavier mileage. Not Klay now, but healthy Klay. Buddy needs to work through it.
Tyrese Haliburton and James Harden both out and the Rockets win by more than when they both payed. PROOF that Haliburton is better than Harden.
Please……..you may be right at some point,,,,,but not yet.
11 assists total, 39% shooting, 71% ft shooting, no wonder we lost.
Like I freakin’ said, TEAM HALI >>> TEAM BAGLEY.
Buddy and Bagley for Al Horford, Ty Jerome and 3 1st rounders is looking nice right now.
27M a year for a 10/8/3 guy? Yeesh.
27M a year for a career 14/8/3 guy who has played in more playoff games then 90% of the league.
Or $22 million a year for a streaky shooter who can’t dribble, pass, defend, or keep his emotions professional.
Plus an inevitable extension for a skinny Center who can’t dribble, pass, defend, shoot, or keep his dad off social media.
And did I mention 1st round picks? Not expecting 3 but I was reaching.
Rondo & Marco played in a massive amount of playoff games, too. That meant nothing here. OKC doesn’t seem to be in the business of dishing 1st rounders, either. Especially to move a guy the just acquired.
Yeah, there’s no real reason the Thunder would do it. The Kings missed their chance on that type of deal for Horford.
I think Bagley would be a player they’d take a chance on rather than another late 1st round pick that they own. Just my opinion.
Maybe. I think the team control is a much bigger deal than many people think.
but really I was talking about sacrificing value to unload Horford.
I don’t think three firsts were ever in the conversation based on the assets the Kings had at the time.
I mean, 3 1sts aren’t really in the conversation now either. What I’m saying is that Philly was in a position where it made sense to give up assets to unload Horford’s contract. OKC is not. They’re better off just holding onto him. He’s a useful player and even within him on the payroll they’ll still have space to add 2 max players next offseason (and the assets to trade for a pre-max star if they want to).
I don’t understand…whoTF wants Horford???? He’s just as trash as the trash (Bagley) we already have on the team.
He’s not trash at all. He’s way overpaid and he isn’t what he once was. But he would still be one of the top 3 or so players on the Kings. Teams with plenty of cap space would want him because he’s a reliable, useful veteran player who theoretically comes baring additional assets. Last year, in a down season, he put up a higher VORP, WS, BPM (which is kinda double counting VORP but also shows his advantage wasn’t just because he played more minutes) and RPM Wins, and would have placed 3rd on the Kings for RAPM.
Rondo and Marco do not compare here. That team was a dead-end with Coach Karl.
Luke’s deficiencies aside, the team is playing inspired ball. Horford is professionalism glue-guy personified. Will help any team right now.
If he doesn’t and is truly washed, then great might as well lose and get an extra 1st rounder in the process.
They’d part with at least 1 first rounder for Buddy and to see what they can do for Bagley. Especially those late 1sts they have from LAC, HOU, PHI, etc.
I hate hearing tank talk! Two relatively close losses to a team that will likely be a playoff team is nothing to cause a somewhat young team to fold / give less than full effort for the whole season. Especially considering they were probably about 15 close calls in that game at least eight or nine of them went Houston’s way. A few of those close calls go the Kings way and perhaps the game goes into overtime. Kings need to keep working hard and perhaps more of those close calls will go their way.
The Kings will continue to struggle to hold leads this season, a lot of their wins will be close, and they’re going to lose a lot.
I do think the Kings will beat the Dubs and Bulls to go 5-3. Hali returns thereafter and who knows that mojo they were on will be back. If they would have pulled off a win on Thursday night, I could have cared less with today’s performance.
Man the Warriors have just looked so damn bad to start the year. With that said, would it surprise anyone if they decide to start hitting 3’s against the Kings? It would not surprise me at all.
Nope. Wouldn’t be surprised. The Dubs are due for a good performance.
Wiggins will do that to a team.
Yea but they beat the Kings which is very plausible and they will have a better record than said Kings.
Not a surprise, it will be an expectation. Wiggins and Oubre will go for 50 pts total with 4 three pointers apiece.
“Two…..losses to a team that will likely be a playoff team“, one of which was without their star player, doesn’t give me confidence this team will be a playoff contender. But good enough to not get a top 10 pick. So let’s hope we get the steal of next year’s draft also!
If the Kings move Buddy the Kings are definitely a worse team. Definitely one of the Bottom 10. Hali is great. But, I don’t think he replaces Hield’s production or 3 pt shooting. Not this year, anyways.
Fun fact! By most measures Halliburton has out produced Hield so far this year.
The only thing Buddy has going for him over Haliburton at this point is shooting volume. I would say that Haliburton is superior in every other aspect of the game.
Small Sample Size.
I truly believe the gap will only widen the longer they play together. But I could be wrong.
So Team Bagley deleted the trade request tweet then retweeted someone else who shared a screen shot of said tweet. Bagley’s going to lose us fans in record number. He’s looking awfully clumsy this season. Team Bagley is a clown show.
I think Monte would consider trading Bagley…if he was worth anything.
It’s difficult to determine his trade value. I have no clue what it is. Maybe a late first rounder?
Instead of trading him, coach him up and get him to buy in and work on his game to fit the modern NBA. And a trip to the Hakeem Olajuwon school wouldn’t hurt.
Yes possibly and yes I agree.
Unfortunately, we’re 2+ years in and seeing the same game we did on rookie opening night. He seems to be exactly what he is.
It doesn’t seem like Bagley’s been working on anything in the offseason, unless he’s peaked already, and what you see is what you get. Package Bags and Buddy, let’s see what we can get.
Some of us were saying when he got drafted that his game really wouldn’t translate to the NBA and sadly I think that’s what’s happening. He just isn’t very good. He’s physically gifted but he has very few of the skills necessary to be an above average NBA player.
And either doesn’t understand team play or doesn’t care to.
Yea the hoping for transformation loop leads to nothing but frustration.
I’d call Charlotte and see if they’d give us Bridges and Monk. Or see if New York wants to make a splash since Mitchel Robinson is off to a slow start. Even his rookie contract is massive. I don’t think anyone will absorb that without sending us some junk contract back with a pick.
Bagley for Markkanen straight up.
On the court, Bagley is just another dude.
We’ve known all along how this thing ends.
Yeah it would be pretty unheard of for his career to start the way it has and have him turn into a good player, especially for the Kings. Maybe he figures some stuff out elsewhere but the Kings ship with Bagley has almost assuredly sailed.
Remember when people didn’t want Lonzo Ball because of Lavar?
It took him telling his dad to shut up (though not so bluntly) for him to shed that image. Teams aren’t inclined to put up with that drama for the services of a middling PG. They’re even less inclined to put up with it for a below-average rotational big.
If Dr. Lydecia Holmes were to trash talk and shut down dad Bagley on Twitter, she’d become my season MVP. Her son is already the better player.
That game was not fun. 🙁
https://twitter.com/NBCSKings/status/1345533971510259716
Luke Walton, thinking to himself: (Is James Ham asking ME to comment about someone else’s crazy dad???)
You’d think somebody in that locker room would say “Hey Marv, can you tell pops to shut his mouth?”
A person on twitter commented about how Vlade passed on Luka because he didn’t want to deal with his father.
Vlade couldn’t even figure out how to pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were written on the heel.
I’m legit curious as to the paper he’s holding? I don’t watch pre/post game stuff, so I’m asking in a serious manner why is he holding some papers? Talking points?
Likely the advanced box. Joerger used to do the same and reference it a lot.
I guess if he won’t watch the tape, he’ll read the paper!
Does he actually understand what’s on the paper, or does he just carry it around as a prop?
It’s his talking point
swritten in giant sharpie.I don’t care what Bagley’s dad thinks. I think coach needs to address what’s going on more than Bagley needs to address his fathers comments. It’s weird to start a player in both half’s, then never play them another minute in the remaining 40% of the game…every game. In this game the offense was garbage in the 4th quarter. Bagley can provide offense. No reason not to throw him out there and see what happens. It’s become weird now that he’s not getting any 4th quarter minutes.
Yes, Bagley riding the bench is the 4th is very strange. It seems like Walton gets into these patterns, and is unwilling to change up anything. The opposing team is outcoaching us every night.
It is simple, Bagley is the worst defensive big on the Kings. He is unplayable in the 4th.
I’m going with Adam here. MB3 gets early minutes because they are trying to develop him and get him experience. Today was game 82 of his career. They Kings are not tanking which means he can’t be on the court in the last 6-8 minutes of the fourth.
That’s pretty crazy that this is only 82nd game of his career.
Unplayable in the 4th…UNLESS, we have a large lead. But somehow, I would still be skeptical with Bagley in the game period. He needs to go.
MONTE!!!!!
It is likely both that Bagley’s a bust and Walton’s a terrible coach. Match made in KANGZ.
Unfortunately this is probably the most likely answer. I would like to see what Bagley looks like with a different coach though. I do think some of his issues could be fixed with a solid teacher.
He’ll likely take the Marvin Williams route. When he gets far enough removed from the expectations of his draft hype, he’ll ultimately settles in as a useful role player.
This!
I don’t understand why Bagley cannot become a poor-man Domantas Sabonis ?
Both got similar size, left-handed….
Take away Sabonis’s passing skill, his post-move is great….
please Walton send some Sabonis’s tape to Bagley ?
Sabonis is better in every area plus tough as hell and a proven top player on a winner !
Sabonis’s passing is what makes him special. Take that away and you have Kanter. You can’t turn Bagley into a poor man’s version of Sabonis any more than you can turn him into a version of Gobert.
Agreed.
Idk how much his dad influences his mindset. He seems to have heavy influence on how Bagley plays. Or maybe they think alike. In any case, I think he could use some humbling. Come down from whatever pedestal they’re all on. I’m sure he’d make a great player within flow of the game.
Shit……what’s the word? Oh yeah enablement. Please correct me if I’m wrong (and I probably am) but isn’t his dad also his agent?
Entitlement
FIFY: Match made in Basketball Hell.
Maybe I’m seeing things wrong but kings seem to make a mini run every time he checks out of the game and CoJo is the third guard. Which really gives me hope for a Fox, Hali, Buddy starting line up. Holmes is clearly the better player you have to keep on the floor. They’re still trying to win games. Don’t worry, once they start up the tank, it’ll be Bagley on the floor.
Yes, I agree. Reporters ask silly questions, like they are coaxing coach into saying the wrong things. I thought Walton actually handled that question rather well considering.
Bagley’s dad may be overly vocal and out of line (that is how I feel), however trying to put my feet in his shoes, I understand it is because he wants what’s best for his son, and he does get a lot of heat for 1) not being though shall not be named and 2) for not living up to the hype of being close to number 2 thus far.
Probably the problem with being over-hyped in the first place. Bags is stuck between a rock and hard place. I do wonder, what the coaches are training him? Is he not being directed properly / Is Bags not listening?
Either way, as rough as it is for Bags, I find it hard to feel sorry for him, considering he is getting paid very well to do what he is currently doing. Cash isn’t everything, however Team Bags are more fortunate than a lot of other folk.
Perhaps another player + Bags can net something of decent value in return? If not, play to Bag’s strengths and probably keep him as second unit until he can earn a starting spot (if ever). I mean, playing fast pace should have a role of some sort for Bag’s strengths?
What is best for his son it to learn how to correct his poor basketball play so that he can become a better player. Dad getting upset with minutes is ridiculous. Tell your kid to focus on on improving and then the minutes will come.
Dude is shooting 37.5% and doesn’t pass the ball. It would be more accurate to say Bagley provides shots at the rim.
Fox needs to take over and show more aggression when the offense is sputtering. More drives and kicks. On a positive his max deal doesn’t kick in until next year. Also while his shooting is down, his free throw attempts and percentages are up, which is encouraging because that will be a key part of his game. Becoming more savvy with making veteran plays to draw fouls still shows growth, his shooting will be better in time, as he has already shot better. He still deserves our patience because of this.
Haliburton is just a stud. Five games in and it’s clear this team should be built around a Fox/Haliburton backcourt. IMHO everyone else is expendable for the right price. If Bagley was as good (or better, considering his draft position) as Christian Wood is right now at a minimum I wouldn’t consider him expendable. I would however, consider having him on the chopping block by the trade deadline if there is no noted growth or improvement by then. Especially when you factor in the Team Bagley antics.
Truth to be told, this fat and uninterested version of Harden hurt Houston for three quarters of the first game. He played big in the fourth and refs also bailed him out
Marc Davis was lead ref in both games. If I recall correctly, Whistle Blower podcast discussed him being a “company man” who the NBA looks to for helping out when needed.
Whistle Blower podcast? That sounds dope. Can you share more info?
Here you go:
3-1 was fun, but I think the Kings will dip below .500 at this point. They got a lucky putback against the Nuggets on opening night, then got the Nuggets again who were coming off a back-to-back road game flying from Denver and missing Jamal Murray. I will give credit to the winning the first Phoenix game.
The losses are more telling; a back to back loss against the Suns shows the Suns adapted better, and the 2 losses against the Rockets featured one game with a rusty John Wall/DeMarcus back from injury, and another game with James Harden OUT.
I will continue to enjoy watching the Kings (especially Halli) however! Let’s go!
Bagley is a frustrating as hell experience…because we want him to be good and at least take some sting out of the Luka whiff (though it never can really). I’m yelling at my TV every game when he tries to bully into the lane for an offensive foul, gets stripped going up, doesn’t contest etc. My 6 year old tonight who sporadically watches, yelled “Get Bagley off the Kings!” I asked him why and he said” He doesn’t seem good at this”. Couldn’t help but laugh.
At the same time Bagley just tonight passed 2000 mins for his career. Amare Stoudemire had played 4500 minutes starting his third season, Porzingus 4200. Christian Wood didn’t do jack(bounced around league) until the last half of last season and is 25.
I have no idea if Bags will turn out like those guys or come no where close. If he came within 80% of them I would take it and run at this point. But it is probably best to find out rather than trade him for likely min value as he crosses the 80 game mark. Absolute best case is to develop him and see what you got after he logs 2000 more minutes the rest of this season (health provided) Does that mean he has to be in every crunch time, no…but if the Kings start bottoming out here over the next 15-20 games, then the time will come.
Oh and screw his Pops.
I think you will drive yourself crazy if you think about Bagley in these terms:
I just try to imagine that he’s a talented, raw kid who, maybe, will turn into a valuable rotation player down the line. There’s no use worrying about him being kinda, sorta good enough to make up for not drafting Luka. That ship has sailed and it’s never coming back. I just hope the kid learns how to play well for his sake. Realistically he will probably never do anything positive for the Kings and that’s just how it is sometimes. He’s probably a bust. After all these years I would think we’d have become pretty good at spotting them by now.
Yeah, At this point it’s a matter of seeing whether Bagley simply just learns the game more and grows past what we saw in his rookie year, because I really just am not seeing signs that he’s progressing significantly. I hope he does, but I grow less confident as the games go by. And really do think that “Team Bagley” does rub off on Bagley’s thinking of he feels like he has to put up those numbers and wants the team to focus around him. And that might be holding him back from growing significantly.
Yeah other than Bagley’s Dad’s twitter account, all I hope to see from this year is health and improvement. Improve at what you ask? Literally anything. I don’t think Luke is the coach who will get it out of him but if I were a coach I would try to simplify things for him as much as possible. Have him practice pick and roll constantly and try to completely eliminate his post game from the play book for the time being. Tell him if he wants to score, he needs to hit open shots and crash the hell out of the offensive boards, and dive hard to the basket off screens. Other than that, I think him trying to get his own offense is actually detrimental to his development.
I think you are 100% right in that Walton is not the right coach for him. McNair may be forced to make a choice sooner rather than later. If Bagley is someone he wants to invest in, then he’d better find the right developmental staff, which is something he does not have right now.
Man, when it comes to his pick and roll game, I don’t know If I’ve seen a worse screener in a Kings uniform. He begins to cut to the rim calling for ball before he even alters the defenders angles. Just pathetic.
Yeah it’s really bad but screening is something you can definitely learn. I would make watch Richaun and have him do it the exact same way every single time. It’s frustrating because he clearly has never learned some very basic basketball concepts that, if he could learn, would help him immensely.
I feel like a lot of elite AAU prospects lack some basic team oriented skills. These young guys have been given the green light to take players one on one since before puberty. I see it in some highly competitive youth leagues. All they do is jack threes and try and cross each other up. It’s a me first mentality that I feel has hurt the game.
Yeah when you watch a player like Haliburton and then you see Bagley, it does make you wonder what the heck happened. How is one guy so polished and understand the game so well and one guy has all the physical gifts you’d want but has zero feel? I assume they both played AAU but man you can just see there’s a huge disconnect in how those two guys think the game.
Hali was a 3 star recruit out of a public high school. He didn’t get notoriety until his junior year. His senior year, he lead his team to their first state title.
Bagley was a 5 star recruit to played for 3 different high schools, that last two being private. He only played three years by skipping his junior year and declaring himself a senior early to get to college.
Two very different paths, but one I like more than the other.
Periodic reminder that this is all Greg’s fault
Greg ruined my draft pick?
Lmao I remember this
The shocking thing is, my 13 year old son can use both hands, set screens sees the floor well, moves the ball and plays team defense. All things Bagley struggles to do. And my son isn’t that special, there are a lot of other kids his age who can do it, too. So how is it that Bagley can’t do them?
Okay, I see you are not really equipped to run the Team Oshima10 Twitter account but you sound like a great dad!
Hate to even think it but it kind of reminds me of coach vivek
LOL. yeah, I can totally see Daddy Bagley challenging some Kings fans to a push-up contest.
Now I understand why my son’s middle school coaches didn’t really care whether my son played AAU, and discouraged it when it entailed too many games. Taking players one on one is the thing he doesn’t do, while he does all those other not in the box score sorts of things.
I was talking with someone during a game recently and said a radical idea to improve team basketball across the league would be to make screens a counting stat like rebounds and blocks.
There’s a guy on twitter who just constantly tweets about screen assists and I kind of love it. I wish I could remember his name but I see him referenced quite often.
Jason Thompson comes to mind. As far as I can remember JT never set a screen that actually involved any contact. Dynamite virtual screener,
What I see is a young player who either doesn’t listen or is incapable of learning.
Walton is terrible, but the lack of improvement is on Bagley, and what I would guess is his dad contradicting the coaching staff.
Great comment FK&C. Personally I think the Kings need to ride this out and see where it goes. Expecting Marvin to live up to his draft spot was on Vlade, not this FO. What this FO needs to do is figure out where Marvin fits, and Marvin should play more when he’s playing well (like several nights ago against Denver) and less like he did against Houston.
Marvin has a long ways to go, but he’s not pure and unfettered crap. Patience will bode well assuming Monte doesn’t get caught up in the silly melodrama that constantly follows Marvin (some of which he’s responsible for like his father and some not like the fans constantly droning on about Luka).
Just out of curiosity, what are your expectations for Marvin this season? My feeling is at least as good as his rookie season, but I’m curious to hear your thoughts.
Yeah I’ve been thinking about this a lot actually (I’m a loser leave me alone). I think it’s not so much about any particular stats but rather simply honing one or two parts of his game so that they become assets. I think the tools are there for him to do a couple things well.
First, he could and should be able to become a pretty solid roll man on offense. I think it would benefit him to play with Haliburton and let the rookie help him to some easy looks. He has zero confidence right now and I think you need to simplify things to get him feeling good about himself a little bit. If Walton is any kind of coach (I’m not optimistic), he would really sell him on the idea that right now less is more.
The second thing I think he can unquestionably use as an asset is his ability to offensive rebound. He can really succeed there and I would tell him to crash the hell out of the boards on every shot even if he has to take rebounds from his teammates.
Ultimately my expectations for this year are health and then one or two very specific things that he can lean on when the rest of his game isn’t working. I feel like he’s trying to do way too much when he’s out there and when he isn’t successful it gets in head and he’s toast after that. It actually bums me out watching him play right now because you can just see he’s got no answers for what’s going wrong.
That makes us both losers then because I’ve been thinking alot about this and De’Aaron’s needed gains for him to hit that next level (seeing some good things out of De’Aaron but that’s not entirely unexpected).
I’m wont to agree with the simplifying things part. But I’m also of the belief part of the issue, not entirely, is that Marvin had a shorter preseason and is working kinks out he didn’t exactly have to do in the preseason/training camp.
I really want to see where’s he at in a month before I start being super critical, but I’d like to see the game be simplified first than work his way back one building block at a time. Thanks for the response!
For sure!
I agree with this as well:
The part of his game that is tantalizing IMO, is his ability to grab a rebound and take it coast to coast and not look totally out of place for a big. He can handle pretty well for his size. You can see the outline of something good but when I watch him play it’s almost like he’s trying to do calculus without having learned algebra first. Walk before you run and all that.
Perfect. Nail meet head.
Is it wrong for me to suggest hatt Bagley is not going to be a great career rebounder. Right now, he is using his elite verticality to get his rebounds, but his positioning and ability to properly box out is something to be desired. He is out jumping others, not out playing them.
To put it differently, he’s not an elite positional rebounder like a prime Zach Randolph who lacked above the rim skills, but rather used his positioning and body to get his rebounds. What worries me is if/when Bagley loses that elite athleticism, he is going to be below average, kind of like the rise and fall of Kenneth Faried, who was out of the league before he turned 30.
Yeah right now I think that’s true but I don’t think it has to stay that way necessarily. And while he’s got the athleticism, he needs to win with his motor. My hope would be that that would get him by as he better learns positioning. Now, maybe he’ll never figure it out but you’ve gotta start somewhere.
Webber never learned to box out. It was one of the battles Nelson had with him. He did ok. Of course he would have done better if he had learned.
Excellent comment, but I think this deserves to be broken down.
Not at all. I’d argue it’s an astute point. I’m not convinced he can’t, but I am convinced he’s not elite right now.
Here’s the problem. He needs to be able to do both, but right now I’ll settle for him doing just what he can do. I’m not worried about whether or not Bagley evolves. That’s usually a multi-year process in my experience.
Yes but it’s not like a young Z Bo was known for being a great athlete either. He did that because that’s what he had to do to make himself effective that way.
I think Bagley is more skilled than Faried who was more or less just an energy guy. And never evolved off that. But Bagley’s athleticism is an asset, he needs to make it work better than he currently has IMO. But that’s a process, hopefully we’ll see more of the finer details later this season than the broad outline we’re still seeing as of now.
Well that’s my hope anyway. Assuming social media doesn’t blow up the world in anger in the meantime.
Of course Randolph also pumped up his rebound numbers by rarely leaving the key to close out on defense.
Yep. You had to have great and versatile defenders around him to make it work ultimately.
ZBo wasn’t a franchise guy, though. Even if someone in Paul Allen’s ear was dumb enough to think so once upon a time.
It’s really just a reminder that we have to look at the team holistically. Can a team win with a slightly more realized Bagley in the starting lineup? Sure. But it means having 1) an extremely versatile big defender that can also space the floor. 2) at least 2 high level facilitators at other positions and 1-2 more good ball movers at the other positions that can also shot. The issue is that Bagley isn’t likely to be good enough at what he does well to be worthy of building the rest of the team to suit him. Guys like Trae Young or Harden or Curry or Giannis or even a guy like Towns who have clear holes in their game, sure, you build rest of the team to cover their weaknesses because they’re SO DAMN EXCEPTIONAL at what they do well. Bagley isn’t that guy and unless he suddenly start shooting, defending, and/or facilitating at levels that he’s never even hinted at, he’s not going to be that guy either. Even his absolutely ceiling, IMO, of something like Amar’e, only really worked because he had Nash and Johnson feeding him and Marion playing basically as a fringe MVP/DPOY level glue guy.
36 double doubles. -2 plus/minus
I agree with you, that the proper line of thinking is to not evaluate in terms of Number 2 pick, Doncic etc. But I think a good chunk of the board does (even if not consciously), hence the tone of threads regarding Bagley from many. It’s human nature.
If he was the number 17 pick the threads would not be dominated by Bagley talk like they frequently are and expectations would be way lower. But he wasn’t, so expectations are very high. While removing his draft position from evaluation (positive or negative) is smart…I don’t think it will happen for most fans, myself probably included even if I try to think rationally about it.
No doubt this is true:
Hell, I was insanely critical of the Bagley pick when it happened and I could not fathom how any person in a front office would think Bagley was a better prospect. But that said, what’s done is done and I do not seek to see the kid struggle just to prove that I’m right. I genuinely do hope he succeeds not only for his sake but because it would help the Kings as well.
I thought it lacked imagination on the Vlade FO. Still do. Regarding not taking Luka, that is. But they then talked themselves into Bagley being the top prospect on top of it.
Vlade’s whiteboard showed that they had Ayton as the top prospect.
I’m sure there were a few other FOs that thought the same thing about Ayton. Still, there were plenty of red flags about Vlade’s tenure. That just happens to be the worst of them.
I’m not certain Ayton still doesn’t go third in a redraft (ahead of JJJ). He’s pretty productive, still only 22, and I haven’t seen anything at this point that shows a really limited ceiling.
Yeah, Doncic and Young are a pretty clear 1-2. Then you have a battle at Ayton, JJJ, SGA, and, now, Probably Porter. I think you could make a good argument for any of those guys.
Of course if he was the 17th pick his father wouldn’t be calling the coach at half time and telling him to trade him either. Do you think Marv went home after the game and told his dad (if they live together) or called and said “Shit pops what were you thinking?”
I don’t either.
I like to think of Bagley as a UFA, which makes me go. Hey, maybe we got a guy who could eventually be a decent 3rd rotational big some day.
He being stripped so much is the worst part. Dude can’t even finish most of the plays. He won’t pass neither generate a possible second chance. After suffering the steal he looks at the refs, it’s so embarassing.
Bagley had a really nice play after a Houston switch, he had Wall guarding him and finished very smothly with a hook shot. Despite his atrocious defense, he could be useful if he undesrtood that he isn’t the focal point of the offense and nobody wants him to play iso.
Meh, the Kings have returned to Earth. IMO, they were punching above their weight the first few games and took teams by surprise due to a shortened pre-season. There is now tape on the Kings and Walton is being proven useless. I fully expect more 2nd half meltdowns as better coached teams adjust.
When it comes to Bagley, we are seeing he is who he is. He’s a hyper athletic big that uses his jump where he lacks in talent. Walton is being forced to bench him late in the games because of his glaring defensive weakness. He is unable to play in crunch time where Bball IQ is paramount. On an athletic spectrum of where Stromile Swift is the low and Amar’e Stoudemire is the high, Bagley is trending towards the former.
I fully expect the Kings to offer him the QO at the end of next season, and that will be the end of the Bagley experiment. He has zero trade value so I think it’s useless to discuss possible suitors. To put it simply, Holmes is the better player and his value is likely a 2nd rounder.
At 3-3, yep still at earth.
Now waiting for the day that they are 5-20 and back at hell.
I mentioned this the other day but if you had told me the Kings would be 3-3 after their first 6 games I would have been shocked. I thought they’d start 1-5 or 0-6. Now, if Haliburton is going to be out for awhile I think they’re in trouble but if he’s back on Monday I think they have a decent shot to win their next two games. We’ll see what happens but I am actually more optimistic than I expected about their prospects in the near term if Haliburton is good to go than I thought I would be.
No doubt – two against the Nuggets, two against Phoenix, and two against Houston yet this team is at .500. We can nitpick players being missing, etc. but this team is good enough to win some games, or more accurately – not bad enough to lose consistently.
I thought they would go 2-8 in the first 10 games.
Yeah I thought we’d be 2-8 or 3-7 after 10 games. If we end up 5-5 that’s actually pretty good. But it would be funny if the Kings still go 3-7 they just take the round about way to get there.
Apparently, i was lucky to sleep thru this one
I don’t mean to sound in need of help but is it wrong for a 70 year old man to giggle every time I hear Christian Wood? It sets off weird unwanted imagery in my head. Must be left over damage from the 1960s.
Paging Jerry Falwell Jr.
Ron seems more like a Falwell Sr. type of guy!
I’m thinking ElRon is more of a Timothy Leary type of guy
At this point, I think there is a decent chance that Bagley will play for the qualifying offer in 2021-2022. Normally, if a second pick performed over three years, this is just not an option for even a player that desperately wants to leave. The player cannot recoup the difference between the 11.3 qualifying offer to Bagley and the 25+ million dollars earned under the first year of long-term extension. Plus, when the player takes the qualifying offer during protracted negotiations, the player still pretty resigned to and/or wants a long-term security of a 4 year extension from his current team. Either way, the team has all the leverage and easily retains the player for at least 7 years.
Even if Bagley was thrilled with Walton and/or the Kings, it’s going to be a tough extension for any team to negotiate. Based upon injuries, upside, flashes and struggles, it’s very hard to hammer out a 4-year deal on these facts. Odds favor that in back half of a 4 year extension either the Kings or Bagley will regret the salary agreed to in the summer of 2021. Maybe they set up a creative extension that looks a bit like Embeid’s with incentives and protections which moots everything below. But, I do not think that’s the most likely outcome at this point.
Even if he doesn’t want to apply pressure to the Kings (and I think he does), it may be a decent idea for Bagley to bet on himself. While injuries are a major concern for Bagley, he’s improving. There will probably be a new Kings coach for 2021-2022. It’s not a horrible bet to take the 11 million, have a big fourth year, and majorly boost his extension value. I wouldn’t do that. But several players would take that risk. The upside of nailing the 4th year and hammering a big extension would mitigate the loss of playing for only 11.3 million in the 4th year.
I can totally see Bagley seeking out a team that provides him a two year offer sheet at 120% of his market value to most teams following his 4th year (whatever that is) (on a deal that short, the upside versus injury risk math his much more palatable) with weird stuff like a full trade kicker and most of the money paid before the season starts. The Kings would certainly match, but Bagley would suddenly have more agency and control in Sacramento. Even if he ended up staying long term, the Kings would have to cater more to Bagley’s desires and role with unrestricted free agency looming after the 6th year. If things got rocky and he wanted to limit where the Kings sent him, Bagley would have a lot of leverage. Bagley would have trade veto power in the 4th year and also have trade restrictions for some of the first year of the offer sheet (5th year). At which point, he enters a walk year into unrestricted free agency.
The moves above are defensible if a player has a lot of confidence in their abilities, is willing to bet on himself, and wouldn’t mind increasing his odds of finding a new home … and that’s certainly seems like the case here. Moreover, it’s how a player can force their way out of a system that normally requires good players to play their first 7 years in the city that drafts them. If Bagley didn’t have a rash of injuries and a disastrous sophomore season … even if he really wanted to force the Kings’ hand … this just isn’t on the table. But, the combination of: (1) his diminished contract value at this point: (2) obtaining either agency during his stay or forcing an exit with the qualifying offer followed by a 2 year offer sheet; and (3) how objectively hard it will be for Bagley and the Kings to hammer out a 4 year extension next summer, I think this unusual scenario is in play.
In which way you see him improving ?
Getting a two assists in this game ?
His assist through out 6 games : 0 , 1, 1 , 1, 1, 2.
His usage is extreme high in this team while efficiency is as low as hell
His 90% of offensive rebound came from his own point-blank shot missed.
Nerlens Noel anybody? Lonzo Ball? What makes you think that the Kings or anybody else is going to offer Marv anything close to the max. Do you remember a player who used to be a King named Willie Cauley-Stein? Her’s playing for $4.1 million this year after making the vet minimum last year. If Marv doesn’t substantially improve his game he won’t be making anything close to what he’s making now as the 2nd pick,
So . . .
How about WW84, right?
I heard it was absolutely fantastic!
Was awful !
In all seriousness, though, good writeup. I’m glad I didn’t watch this game based on what I’ve read here and seen elsewhere online. As soon as I saw Ty was out, I didn’t want to watch since seeing him play is my main interest now.
Comically terrible.
I was shocked at how bad it was.
I enjoyed it.
in the middle, I commented on how bad it was. And it only got worse from there. By the end, I was outright laughing at how bad it was.
I loved everything Pedro Pascal was doing. I think he must have gotten bored playing the Mandalorian so he went all the way the other way and delivered one of the most insane performances I’ve ever seen.
Pedro carried it, no doubt.
Honestly, there were times I thought he was the best thing about the movie, and times his performance was a trainwreck. They’d have been much better off cutting out Chris Pine completely, trimming some of the Maxwell Lord stuff and focusing more on the Cheetah character – her heel turn was not sufficiently developed IMO.
The Wonder Woman character, as a whole, is pretty campy. I thought they made the best of what they could with it. It was pure cheese, but entertaining, none the less. Gal Gadot’s acting definitely doesn’t help when trying to carry a movie as a main, though.
Outside of Superman and Batman, none of the DC characters are deserving of their own movies. They need that Justice League style of combination to hold one’s interest over 2 hours. Unfortunately, Warner Bros has tripped all over itself in trying to flush that whole universe out.
It was pretty bad, and I was still entertained.
Frankly, they’d have been better off just excising the whole Chris Pine subplot and developing the Cheetah character more, IMO.
Yeah, don’t get me wrong, enjoyable =/= good. I can enjoy a movie that isn’t good, the same way I can appreciate but dislike really good movies.
i am thoroughly entertained by The ROOM and similar movies.
Jingle All The Way is probably my favorite bad holiday movie to watch every Christmas. I crack up all the time watching it.
Awful CGI. Just felt like she was hanging on cables. Felt weird for a $150M movie.
Bagley is just bad……..he is just a selfish player……
Holmes is wide open, and Bagley not passing, then the ball stripped out of his hand
Stripped again by House..
Whenever he switches…the opponent will score on him..and he never fight through screen to try to guard his own man..
I agree with Dad Bagley…please trade him ASAP…..(throw in some picks for Rui Hachimura ?)
Elephant in the room, OK I’m going to say it. Fox has to be traded. I love Fox and I would have never suggested this if it wasn’t for T.H. This kid has what it takes to win games against good teams. Foxes weakness is his half court crunch time or momentum needing, game. Love him him in full court transition. But half court when we need him the most he turns into ISO guy with a forced fadeway. T.H. makes the best play for the situation. If Fox was hitting these shots then he would be fine. Players like KD do this, players that make the best play are more like LeBron. The KD style only works if you make the shots, not too many players can do this. Not sure how long Fox and T.H. can continue to play together. Fox is a starting point guard and may turn into that tough shot maker but TH is the shit now and is only a rookie! He must bring the ball up which turns Fox into an off guard, not his best position. Trade Fox now for a 1st round, tank the season get Cunningham. And watch T.H. turn into a star.
And Buddy you are not a point guard!
Whoa. Talk about a hot take. Fox and Haliburton can share a backcourt. Our closing lineups have featured them both on the floor. It doesn’t hurt to have two playmakers. Fox is the last person we need to trade. Haliburton being so good makes me think we could have a top 3-5 backcourt in a few years.
I actually think Hailburton helps Fox more than anybody and it’s definitely worth taking some time to see what those two look like together for a season or two.
That said, I’d trade Fox for a top pick in this draft without thinking twice. Haliburton will work with anyone. Fox and Haliburton are interesting. Cunningham and Haliburton is exceptional. To say nothing of Cunningham, Haliburton and potentially one of Suggs/Mobley/Kuminga. Or, if they don’t get lucky in the lottery two of Suggs/Mobley/Kuminga/Green.
Yeah you’re probably right especially considering how much cheaper those guys will be in the near term. I don’t dislike Fox but I just don’t think the ceiling that many in the Kings fandom believe is there is actually there.
I don’t dislike Fox at all. I think he’s a good young player and I think any team would have extended him. I’m in no hurry to trade him.
I think there’s some odd misconception that you only consider trading guys you don’t like or think aren’t good. Which is just silly. If you think that way you’re only every going to trade players without much market value. You consider trading players if you believe the return from the trade will help you improve the teams chances of reaching your goal. As such, since I think those guys listed are both better NBA prospects with higher ceilings than Fox AND would reset team control, then I would trade Fox if it gave me a chance at them. The fact that we very well be able to get that PLUS more assets, makes the decision pretty easy for me. Now, if we’re talking about late or non-lottery picks coming back, I’d obviously need much more.
This sounds great, honestly. Who would one of the trade partners be?
NYK? Cavs?
The obvious answer is the Knicks. Since they’re still bad, have surplus 1sts over the next few years, and a couple kinda interesting young guys on rookie deals. Really, last offseason summer was the time to do it. The Bulls are probably going. to want an actual PG at some point. The Pelicans? The Pacers have the combo guards to make Fox work well but no traditional PG.
Really, it’s hard to say right now. I don’t think it would happen until next offseason, or at least the deadline, and A LOT can change between now and then.
Lol
This has big Stan Lee cameo in the Simpson’s energy, when he destroys a kids bat mobile by jamming a The Thing action figure into it.
I hope those talk can really speed up the Bagley’s trade….
Monk and Mo Bamba are both in dog-house…
and I really don’t mind one of them…….(at least they knows their own roles)
What an embarrassment to his family.
Wtf! Psycho Andy man lol
I just want to say I agree with papa Marvin the kings should trade his son.
Wall and Cousins both seem to be in great shape – but while Wall was the best player on the floor, Cousins still looked like Cousins. Still getting his shot blocked by smaller guys in the post because he lacks the athleticism to finish. Crazy that he still gets the ball down low so much.
And I’m still shocked that Christian Wood didn’t get a bigger contract in free agency. He’s damn good.
As to the Kings, this is a mediocre team, so they’ll win some they should lose and they’ll lose some they should win. The further you get into a season, the more a team is generally what their record shows. Right now, that’s .500 – I suspect they’ll still be there or slightly better after their homestand.
I chuckled at the sequence when Cousins missed a shot or turned the ball over like 4 straight possessions and then slowly walked back on defense. The more things change the more they stay the same.
Teams have a tendency to overthink things sometimes. But I’m not sure Wood had much of a market, either. I’m pretty surprised by it, too.
As, and I think I can say this with confidence, the foremost Christian Wood hipster on this board, I agree. I think it can be explained by a (perhaps ill-conceived) combination of:
Fantasy basketball brag: I’m in a long time Fantasy BBall keeper league and I got to keep Wood for a 13th round pick because I got him off waivers last season. Christian Wood is my hero.
I have a bad habit of going all in on breakout candidates a season too early in fantasy. Then missing out of their true breakout seasons.
Some of these comments, wow!! How can you make the jump from Haliburton whose only played five games and hasn’t even seen the cream of the crop teams yet to Fox being traded so Haliburton can take his spot. Haliburton is a rookie and there are going to be nights when he is going to get schooled. The only thing Haliburton has proven thus far is that he can play in the league.
Exactly. It’s crazy. They would trade Fox, who is still playing on his rookie salary until next year, before Buddy, an expiring contract, or Bagley. After 5 games lol. Our fanbase is not used to max contract worthy talent and we bias towards the underdogs on the roster. Every single team in this league would give Fox the max under our circumstances. It’s that much of no brainer. I’m tired of hearing about his contract when it doesn’t kick in until next year.
Maybe you trade Fox before Buddy because you can get a larger haul back?
Not saying I advocate for that, but it’s not as simple as “Player 1 is better than Player 2”.
I agree that most teams would have given Fox the max in the same situation as the Kings. I certainly would have. But that doesn’t mean he is (or he’s going to be) an elite player. So far, he looks pretty identical to last season – solid, but not upper tier.
I understand that point of view. To better clarify where I was coming from it was why set us back another x amount of years when Monte got his job based on his plans for Fox. I could understand if we had exhausted all measures to make a solid supporting cast for him. We complain mainly about other people’s boneheaded plays. Fox has improved-between the ears at least. He is drawing more fouls and shooting better at the free throw line. We know he is capable of shooting better overall. He just needs to pull it all together.
Also, I would argue we should have traded Hield and matched Bogie after these first 5 games.
I disagree on Fox. He’s really not a max player and I don’t believe most teams in the league would have offered him him the same. No way. He’s never led the team to a playoff, Never been to an All Star Game and is does not have that Killer Mentality that separates good from great.. He’s solid. But, he looks no different than he did last year. Rarely does he ever take over against Elite competition. To me that defines a max player. If the Kings can trade him to get into the Top 5, I am all for it.
If you think trading him can get us into the top 5 then you also think he is a max player as well. There are levels to max extensions. Elite max players get paid more. Fox got a minimum max deal and Tatum got a bigger max deal, for example. Fox has incentives he has to reach to get paid as much as Tatum. And once again that extension doesn’t kick in until next year anyway. Let’s revisit this discussion at the end of the season, not 5 games in.
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