The Athletic’s Sam Amick and Jason Jones dropped a must-read report on the Sacramento Kings Friday morning. Amick and Jones addressed everything from Monte McNair’s long-term plan to Luke Walton’s job security, and which players on the roster could be available as the March 25 trade deadline approaches.
A lot of Amick and Jones’ extensive report was confirmation on speculation we’ve been talking about for the last several weeks. Amick and Jones confirmed that it is unlikely that Luke Walton will be fired over the All-Star break, for example.
What we didn’t know is that, according to rival executives, Mavin Bagley is “up for discussion” in trade talks, and how that factors into Nemanja Bjelica’s bizarre benching earlier this season.
Bagley, who has one season remaining on his rookie contract ($11.3 million in 2021-22), has progressed in his first season starting (14.1 points, 7.6 rebounds per game) while making modest improvements on the defensive end. This has taken place, of course, amid his father, Marvin Bagley Jr., complaining about Walton on social media (just like he did Dave Joerger before him) and publicly asking the organization to trade him in early January. Rival executives say Bagley III is up for discussion in trade talks, but the interest in him is widely seen as minimal because of his struggles these past two seasons.
The Bagley component, perhaps more than any other, is a reminder of how challenging rebuilding can be on the players themselves. When the Kings made it a priority to start Bagley at the start of this season, sources say the veteran who lost his starting spot 32-year-old forward Nemanja Bjelica was incensed at the idea that he’d been supplanted simply because he wasn’t part of the long-term plan. Sources say Bjelica chose not to play from Jan. 9 until his return to the rotation on Feb. 12, in large part, because of his strong disagreement with the decision and the reasons behind it. On the official record, the reasons given for Bjelica’s absences ranged from DNP-CD to back spasms to personal reasons. He is likely to be traded before the March 25 trade deadline.
Although not terribly surprising considering Bagley’s rocky tenure in Sacramento, this report is certainly news. It’s important to note here that the source for Bagley’s apparent availability is “rival executives” so take that for as many grains of salt as you wish. Amick and Jones are as reliable as it gets in Sacramento, though, so if they’re willing to print it, I’m willing to believe it.
This also doesn’t mean the Kings are actively shopping Marvin Bagley. It means he’s on the table if the right offer comes along. I happen to think the Kings won’t find an offer worth pulling the trigger on, but time will tell.
Bagley is a difficult player to trade at this moment in time. I imagine the return package won’t significantly move the needle because Bagley’s value just isn’t that high, and the risk makes me uncomfortable.
Marvin Bagley is still just 21 years old, and finally healthy for the first time in nearly two years. While I haven’t been floored by his play considering the high expectations that come with being drafted 2nd overall, we don’t have a clear image of what Bagley will become two or three years down the line. If I’m the Kings, I’m not sure risking Bagley’s potential is worth the underwhelming return you’re probably looking at right now. The best move might be no move at all. Let Marvin Bagley play the year out, see what you have for a little while longer, and make a more educated decision on his future in the offseason.
Maybe Bagley shows no additional signs of development and his value sinks even further. Maybe he continues his recent stretch of decent offensive production and you keep him, or trade him when his value improves, but right now doesn’t seem like the optimal time to make this move. I’m sure others will disagree with me on that, but those are my feelings on the Marvin Bagley situation as of today.
If Bagley’s value is higher than I’m anticipating, I might feel differently on this. But as of March 5th, I’d consider a Marvin Bagley trade unlikely despite what rival executives are whispering. It’s a fascinating report though, I’ll give them that.
Monte McNair has exactly 20 days left to figure it out.
Here. We. Go.
I guess someone’s dad is happy to hear this report. 😉
How about Enes Kanter last night!
Seriously lol
…and the trade offers are pouring in!
Henry and Mike Bibby agree.
The Kings ownership and front office is dangerously unpredictable.
Playoffs or tank?
Tank Assistant
Bagley absolutely is tradeable. If someone offered a package that is more valuable than what you perceive Bagley to be (which isn’t inconceivable) then you move him. The only untradeable pieces might be Fox and Hali. But even they could potentially be had if the price was right.
per the report, that’s the problem, teams don’t value him so they’re not going to offer much.
Yes, largely due to the fact that Bagley sucks.
I don’t like that Bjelly decided not to play just because he wouldn’t start. However, I would be pissed off too if they started Bagley over me. I’m surprised this didn’t leak sooner.
At this point, I’d keep Bagley unless the right offer comes around. He’s slowly developing and maybe this offseason he can make a big leap. If Bjelly gets traded it should open up more minutes for him too…. which may help the tank.
“Role-player angry that team prioritizes lottery pick over him for playing time.”
That may be how Bjelica feels, but it’s neither smart, nor a good look for a guy who has a good rep around the league.
I think he’s more angry b/c Bagley sucks.
Ha.
please get rid of Bags. Please! As I’ve been saying, he’s never going to be a player to build around. Useless to try to force something that won’t happen. Don’t care that he’s 21. He not very goodwhich is why it’s hard to get much of a return. Just do it, whatever it is so you don’t have to use money on dead weight.
I think he is pissed because he is better, and, he took a risk for the club staying here to play rather than going back to Europe and he is a stand up guy who knows how to play the game mentally and physically.
I also wouldn’t be surprised if there are some sour grapes with Vlade being fired and the whole Bogi debacle. Nemanja’s whole demineer looks down.
He does look disenchanted often – I completely agree here
But he balls out and plays productive minutes. The dude is human.
Everyone gets that way when they turn 50.
Agreed … the sad part is, think where we might be record-wise if the best players got the most minutes, not handed them out to try to make the Great Bagley Experiment work.
When you can’t play a guy in the fourth quarter, that should clue you in that you can’t start him in the first quarter either.
Trash Bagley
Not really a good argument when Bjelly also sucks by NBA standards. If he was an above average NBA starter he’d have a legit gripe. But since he isn’t, you have to develop his replacement.
Tbf a lottery pick should still earn his spot or it’s a recipe for terrible team attitude/chemistry
I don’t think he was upset because he didn’t start, he was upset with not playing at all.
Which apparently, he insisted upon.
And again, how is Bjelica not playing on Bagley? He doesn’t call the lineups.
I’m not saying Bjelica is right, but I understand him being pissed about both not playing at all *and* not being traded. What is Bjelica still doing on the Kings? He’s not worth more than a second, and a second and dead salary for the remainder of the year seems like plenty. They’re killing his value in a contract year for no reason.
Totally agree. He’s in a contract year and is being benched for no good reason. This also comes off a very solid year from him when he was one of the better players on the team.
This isn’t a Z-Bo situation where he went from starter one year to sitting at home the next. Nemanja is there every night dressed and ready to play. And when he does play, he does just fine.
Personally, I feel there is something else going on. It wouldn’t surprise me if Nemanja quietly asked for a trade, so Walton just sat him, only to find out Monte is holding out for better offers.
“Okay, we want to trade this guy who’d like out because he isn’t playing. Let’s maximize his value by sitting him for two months.”
Do people actually believe this?
Yes. Typically players who ask to be traded get benched or don’t even dress for the games. Nemanja had multiple DNP-CD in a row.
Could it be that Monte got on the phone during that time and found there were no offers better than a box of rocks? He them tells Nemanja he’s gonna have to grin a bear it until he can find a trade partner so put on your big boy pants? Nemanja reluctantly agrees while wearing the Debbie Downer face.
Isn’t that exactly what happened with Harden until he was traded?
According to a Shams article they linked to in this article, there are multiple suitors for Bjelly (& Barnes).
I’m sure there are, I have no doubts about that, but there were also likely multiple suitors for Harden. It doesn’t mean a GM has to take the first few offers if they don’t pass the sniff test.
I’d argue that by insteting Nemanja back into the rotation his value has held. He’s shot 42% from 3 over the past 10 games after a pretty miserable start. Maybe that is why there are so many reported suitors who also happen to be contenders.
I’m hoping Monte is a smart GM and is embracing a possible bidding war for Nemanja.
I’m assuming the reason that Bjelly & Barnes haven’t been traded is b/c McNair’s hoping for a bidding war. Amick & Jones also wrote that McNair hopes to trade CoJo, but I think that’s less likely to happen.
Yeah, the CoJo things surprised me. I really don’t think there will be any buyers for him.
That being said, he may have value to a contender who needs some backcourt depth and value his non-guaranteed deal next year. He’s close to an expiring so you never know…
Nooo, guys get benched when other teams start asking about their availability, not just because they ask to be traded.
It’s a players league, but only a small group of them can actually demand a trade and be accommodated. Bjelica is not among them.
DNP-CD – Did not play, can’t deal
Dunno Andy, I don’t think there’s any mystery about Bjelica as a player at this point. Sit him, don’t sit him…I’m not sure it changes much.
I agree with you, teams know who he is. That’s just more reason to give Bagley his minutes. I said the same thing about Bogdan, but we’ve managed to lose plenty of games with both of them getting hefty minutes, and neither are part of the long-term plan. May as well let Marvin get the game experience he’s missed while being injured.
All of this just reminds me how grateful I am that McNair let BoBo walk. Chronic knee injuries, and we want him contributing when he’s 32? Guh, pass.
Bjelly made the decision to not play at all.
Are you sure about that? I haven’t read it as that black and white. If a player declined to play wouldn’t he be subject to fines? They guy was dressed and sitting the sidelines every night, so why was he there if he declined to play?
This seems pretty black & white to me:
Sounds pretty black and white to me as well. He’s kinda throwing a tantrum by just refusing to play but he probably though that doing so would get him traded quicker which is what he ultimately wants. Not many 32 yr olds want to be part of rebuilding – just ask JJ Watt lol
I totally missed that, my apologies. Still, wouldn’t that kind of choice by Nemanja be subject to some kind of team punishment?
Either there was no team punishment or the sources for Amick & Jones didn’t talk about the punishment.
I’m absolutely certain that there is no professional sports franchise that prioritizes a player’s concerns because they happen to be in a contract year.
It’s good if you can do right by a guy, but Bjelica getting big minutes doesn’t move the ball forward, and it’s not as if he’s some kind game-changing talent.
Then move him. This isn’t complicated. There isn’t going to be a bidding war. Just get a second and move the guy. Problem solved. They should have done that three months ago.
I guess I don’t understand the rush to trade a guy who’s pissy in January when his value to other teams will be higher as the deadline approaches. Bjelica isn’t a starter in the league other than in very limited circumstances, and there’s just no reason to cut bait and accept less when the possibility still exists of getting more. In fact, packaging him with another player could yield a great deal more.
If you can somehow wrangle pick #38 instead of #58, isn’t that worth inconveniencing said player’s wishes? Even if he stays and goes elsewhere at season’s end, who cares? We’re arguing about nickels and dimes while billion-dollar business is going on.
I don’t think Bjelica’s value is going to change much at all at any point. You know what you’re getting.
Its got to be about using his salary as filler in other trades then
It’s not on Bagley. It’s a silly narrative that has been recently been spun about the Kings wanting to go young when it flies in the face of reality of Cory Joseph getting big minutes.
The Kings seem to want to spin by saying they want to see what they got in Bagley, but in reality there are plenty of minutes for Nemanja as well. IMO, when he got a handful of DNP-CD in a row, it wasn’t not because they were prioritizing Bagley. That’s bullshit and is evidenced by Bagley not playing in the 4th quarters of those games.
You don’t make rotation decisions based on what’s best for the development of a guy on a two way contract.
Also I would bet a large sum of money that Walton and McNair are on the same page about how to handle Bagley’s 4th quarter minutes.
Bjelly made the decision that he wouldn’t play. He benched himself.
Let’s not forget that tese are reports. Could be accurate or could be wrong.
It is weird that at the start of yhe season Bjeli played 10 games and was okay with coming off the bench and then suddenly became incensed and refused to play. In a contract year.
I think if Bagley is legitimately outplaying Bjeli or at least is ont he same level it wouldnt be an issue. But imagine being a former Euroleague MVP and a solid NBA contributor losing your spot to the concept of “must play the high draft pick regardless of production”. It suuuuucks.
Bagley’s scoring average of 14.1 might be closer to 17 if he hit his free throws. Not bad for a 21 year old with potential upside.
All in all, I agree with the author. Bagley should be on the trading block, but I don’t see the Kings moving him right now, unless they get an offer they can’t refuse.
Only avg 3 free throws a game… so even if he shot 75% he would only be around 15 a game. But I agree with your general sentiment.
I did see that stat afterwards, probably would be closer to 15 a game. Still not bad for only playing 26 minutes a game.
Yeah I’m with you. Would trade if getting quality back but that seems like fantasy at this point. I’d rather keep and roll the dice that he turns into a quality starter.
There have been signs of his offensive game sense improving bit by bit…I don’t see why the same couldn’t happen defensively and at least get him to passable on that end.
He doesn’t want to be here. It’s just kicking the can a bit further down the road and hoping his value will have increased by then.
We’ll see.
This, I believe is how bad organizations think. Maybe Bagely will become good Maybe Walton can be a good coach.
Players don’t typically change much defensively. Look at Buddy. You think he’s gonna get better? No. Neither is Bsgs, not to any significant degree.
Good organizations look ahead a make educated/logical guesses. The odds are heavily in favor of Bags being meh. Good organizations cut bait before it’s too late. Move on, no matter what you get. There are sooooo many reasons why building w Bags is a problem/makes it so hard. Just like if they keep Walton.
I’m tired of these jaded Kings lenses. This team needs to do better not hope a blown draft pick magically turns into a building block. This kind of thought is why Sac is always bad.
Have a thumb, very well-said.
McNair didn’t pick Bagley, he has no investment in him or placating his dad. He should make a hard nosed calculation and do what he thinks needs to be done with Bagley, which is trade him if any decent offer comes along.
Does anyone here believe Bagley would be worth extending?
If not, then we need to trade him now while he still has “untapped potential” that other execs believe they could unlock, hoping that other teams think, “Well, it was the Kings, he was never going to be any good there.”
Let us recoup something for him and move on with a better understanding of what this roster needs (defense and attitude!).
No. Hell no.
14 a game for Bags 20 a game for the other team va his D. It’s the spread not the points. Bags spread is mostly negative. Like an average RB that loses 5 10% of the time,kills a drive more often than extending one.
I think even if he may not get traded this deadline, it’s easy to see signs that he’s not long for this team.
-His father’s trade demand.
-His lukewarm response to his father’s trade demand.
-The wishy-washy interview regarding future the other day.
-HIs coach’s aversion to using him in important moments. This isn’t a Luke thing; he’d have that problem under a lot of coaches.
-This is Vlade’s player, not McNair’s. Not to mention, McNair is a Daryl Morey student; has Morey ever valued players in Bagley’s archetype?
I agree with you, in that Bagley is available, because pretty much everyone is available. Despite the perpetual cries from a vocal minority, Bagley is showing real improvements, and shouldn’t be moved just to satisfy people who are angry at Marvin because some dumbass whose jersey is retired here decided that making the obvious pick just had to be some kind of trap.
Ignore everything except the results, Bagley is making strides. A player’s draft position doesn’t mean shit once they hit an NBA court. It tells you about the front office, not a bout the player.
Bagley will be a restricted free agent in a year and a half. If I were the GM, I wouldn’t want to have to pay him big money based on the hope that he’ll eventually become the second or third best player on a contending team.
That may be true and logical and all that, but it is much more fun to paint anyone willing to trade him as a Bagley hater.
I didn’t say anything about free agency. Did you inadvertently reply to me instead of making a standalone comment?
“sims, you fool! Can’t you see that this was an attempt to change the subject using a straw man argument?”
This is why I advocated for trading him last off-season. His value gets lower and lower the more he plays. This situation reminds me of when the Sixers had to trade Okafor for nothing.
Thanks again Vlade
Oh, definitely. We’d absolutely have gotten more in return last season if we’d shopped Bagley while he was injured for a couple of months. Suitors can’t get enough of a player on crutches.
I understand and appreciate that individuals all think in a unique fashion, so can you help me understand how Bagley’s value is lower now than twelve months ago?
there is now more evidence that Bagley is who he is, and he’s year older now
You agreed with me, and you don’t even realize it.
Trash IS what Bagley thinks he is.
Wheres MarinkoviÄ, the last draftee by The Valdefather?
I bet he has better game than Marvin THE BUSTley
Now trade buddy and bagley for Beal
Any interest in acquiring some of my very fine 50 cent pieces for a $20? Asking for a friend.
How about Buddy, Bagley, and a couple firsts?
I’d do buddy, bagley, and 1 first round pick. More than that is too much. I dont see the kings being a playoff team with that trade but they would definitely be better than they are now. maybe a 0.500 team if that trade goes through.
Not too long ago I was buying 50cent silver halves for $7.50 each. Those days are gone.
It would take Bagley, Buddy and about 5 first round picks/swaps. If the Wizards actually want to trade Beak they’ll get much better offers than what the Kings potentially could give them.
Agreed. It would take a boatload of picks and swaps. And therefore in the end not worth it.
I don’t know. I’ve been watching Bagley. I’ve even seen him put some effort in on the defensive end. He definitely has the potential to be a good defender. His offense is already there, pretty much. Hopefully he doesn’t turn into the next Michael Beasley
Nah, I’d prefer Zion, LeBron, Kawhi or Luka, maybe somebody like that instead.
Bagley should be SO much better than he looks right now. Not sure what to make of him. It’s a gamble to move him. He could easily put on muscle and take it to the next level. But he may also flatline and have a Jason Thompson career. Trading him now at his low value is a tremendous risk, but I’d throw him in if it was part of much more impactful deal.
I think he’s having a Jason Thompson career now. Also, a Bagley’s age Thompson will still at Rider College.
We should all be so much better than we are right now.
Actually, I think it’s the opposite. It’s more of a risk to think Bagely will become good and having to shell out $ then moving on.
Bagley will be lucky to have Jason Thompson’s career at this point.
Bagley is already better than Jason Thompson ever was.
Monte on phone: “He, fellow GM, just wanted to see what’s up and what your thoughts are on Marvin Bagley?”
Other GM: “I think Bagley looks better in a Kings uniform than my own team’s uniform.”
Monte: “Ahhh….well….ok, thanks and talk to you later.”
When is Bagley’s brother going to college? The Bagley family might move with him and Marvin won’t have to be living in his parents basement anymore. Even on his rookie contract he can afford a nice apartment in Sacramento. Seriously, I think by his sixth year (like Julius Randle, though they’re talking trade for him too) Bagley will be a top 10, top 20 big in the NBA. Not up there with some #2 picks like Kevin Durant and Carmelo Anthony but way ahead of other #2 overall picks like Derrick Williams and Jabari Parker (just to name guys who played for the Kings).
If the Kings stand pat on Bagley, Barnes and Buddy, I, frankly, won’t be unhappy.
Marcus is at ASU right now.
And he’s even worse in defense and not as dominant on offense. Coached against him multiple times at the hs level
They can only have one. Bagley or Hield. Having both is too much of a liability on the defensive end.
I would be very unhappy. I am positive Buddy and Barnes won’t be on the next Kings playoff team and about 95% positive Bagley won’t either.
How certain are you that Fox will be ?
Not very
That’s a tough one. I think because he just signed the max extension that he probably will be. I actually feel pretty confident that Haliburton will be on the next Kings playoff team though.
Carmelo was the #3 pick, because … Darko. That happened.
Thread Jack: I think TKH should not be copying sections from a paid website and posting for us to see. I understand its a slippery slope to try to paraphrase without copying, but I think its something to consider since good journalism is hard to find. Side note: I’m on a deal for The Athletic for $1/month, so good deals are to be had.
I’m assuming that’s just a snippet of the article? The link and author are included, so the site is being promoted. Seems pretty standard.
So it feels to me like this is ok, unless that’s a decent portion of the article.
Very small part of the article. The article goes into a lot of other things with the FO, luke, Monte, Dumars, etc. I would agree that they are still promoting the Athletic.
It is funny though, every time the Athletic posts an article there are immediately articles about the same thing from bleacher report, clutch points, SB Nation, etc. The Athletic is becoming the go to for written sports journalism.
Yeah the article in question is almost 2000 words. The amount were shared from it is on the upper end of how much I’m comfortable sharing from a paywalled article. It’s always a fine line to walk, because we want to respect the paywall, but we also want to share relevant information and context.
Any time we share from a paywall we’re considering two aspects: how much of the content are we sharing, and are we providing enough of our own analysis to warrant it.
Some places will just take snippets and share them without any other insight, analysis, or commentary. That, to me, is basically just stealing content. Whereas here Tony is using that snippet for a larger discussion, going more in depth on that specific topic than the article being referenced.
That’s the interesting part to me. It sounds like the implication is that there is a percentage of paywalled material that is okay to share, as opposed to a word count. As a rule of thumb, would you say it’s ten percent? Twenty-five? The snippet in question is definitely substantial, at over 230 words.
Would it be better to use a smaller amount, and then add additional context from the writer? It’s more work, but I know that the writers here are more than capable of the task.
This is a summary of a book by Cory Doctorow from 2016 called Information Doesn’t Want to Be Free. There are some really good ideas about copyright law, censorship, and the ability of people to access information in the internet age.
I see both sides of it. As someone who loves doing research, I’d love to be able to freely access any possibly available bit of information, while at the same time knowing that people who have created this information deserve to get paid for it. I’m not even sure that there’s a way to equitably balance those competing viewpoints. From my point of view, this short video with Harlan Ellison is difficult to disagree with.
Not a year goes by when your employer doesn’t expect you to be more productive without providing additional compensation. At some point, the bill must be paid, or the productivity/content will disappear so that writers can earn a living doing paid work.
My guess is that Amick and Jones would bless TKH’s posting and link. The Amick/Jones article is immense, and the amount quoted in the article above is but a fraction of it.
This is not copyright infringement under these circumstances – it’s free advertising.
Agree, and I literally joined The Athletic yesterday after seeing this article. Money well spent, what a beautiful, informative app!
So did I after reading the 1$/month comment. That’s a great deal! The snips are free promotion, they’ve always made me want to sign up but I’m too cheap
I don’t expect that Amick has the juice to decide what portion of his work submitted to the Athletic is fair game for other sites, whether he approves of it or not.
To me, Bagley being available & having a low trade value was only the 3rd most important part of the article. Bjelly benching himself & the reasons that Walton won’t be fired were more important aspects of the article.
You can say this about every single NBA player. Hoping for transformations seems like a wasteful business strategy to me.
.
.
Luke Walton on Jan. 24, via James Ham and NBCSports. The Bee and James Ham trying to check and balance each other amidst the dysfunction…
Sounds like one is talking to the player and the other the team.
Exactly
In 99 cases out of 100, there’s very little that you can do with eighteen-year-olds other than to hope that they become what it is that you want. The option of drafting a kid who already meets every expectation for a jump to the NBA is exceedingly rare.
The entire draft is based on hope for transformations. That is literally the business model for professional team sports.
Agree. Wasteful and bad business policy. Not what good teams do. Kings fans have set the bar too low. We have Kings syndrome. Glomming onto anything, hoping for miracles, ignoring reality/logic.
You can absolutely hope for transformation prior to a certain amount of minutes played in the NBA, IMO. If Haliburton didn’t improve one iota the rest of his career, he’d be a pretty solid player. But I’m sure the team is hoping he “transforms” into something more than that.
Fox, as well (that was the entire basis of giving him a max extension).
Since Bagley pretty much missed his second year, for all intent and purposes he’s in his second year. I’ve seen improvement from his rookie season thru now. Like James Ham said “there is a ton of talent there”. Since interest is minimal I would let Bagley play out his rookie contract, then go from there.
Or, he sucks, won’t get better and I’d gladly take any player on any roster plus a second round pick for him just so we can all move on finally.
Either way.
Why? Because you are mad? You don’t give up 15 points and 8 rebounds for any player.
If Bagley gets traded, you will be amazed at all of the things people like Ham, Christie and Ross start saying about him.
Should be in discussions. Also, there is no need to move him if it’s not a good deal.
He’s not getting traded. Nor should he.
He will average 18 and 11 in April and May. Empty stats probably but give this guy a full rookie contract before he’s given up on.
Watch when Haliburton averages the same stats next year dudes will say he’s reached his ceiling when it takes 3-4 years for rookies to truly take the next step.
Well put ð
Apples to oranges. Haliburton has already displayed intelligence, unselfish play, and a knack for great defense. Bagley has shown none of that.
I think Bagley can certainly make some more strides on the offensive side of the game, but he’ll never get smarter and I don’t see the desire from him to want to get better defensively.
Don’t trade him for peanuts, but if he gets a decent return (unlikely) or needs to be included to make a good deal work, then too-da-loo
I would argue that he has made strides offensively mostly in just his general understanding of the game on that end of the court. He posts up less, less black hole, moves the ball a bit better etc. Still flaws, but better.
Why is getting better at defense so dramatically different? He sucks on D for sure right now, but I generally think he is trying…just poor at figuring out rotations, when to hedge etc. He has gotten some better at it this year, taking charges an example.
If he is “smart” enough to improve on one end, it’s not impossible to think he could do similar on other end. He definitely through AAU, college etc has worked on that part of his game less i would imagine.
Not saying he ever will be good or even average defensively, but could get to being more playable in 4th quarters and not a total liability, which if offensively he keeps progressing can be a valuable player.
I’m not comparing Bagley to Hali I’m only saying the same Kings fans that throw Bagley to the wolves after 1 and a half amount of seasons played are the same who question Haliburton’s ceiling when he doesn’t make an All Star leap next year. Same as those who threw Fox away 5 games into the season.
I don’t blame them, it’s just called being a Kings fan. Patience goes out the window.
I’m a kings fan who thinks Bagely should go/won’t get much better but I’m not saying that about Hali or Fox. Probably same is true for a lot who see Bagely beefing to go.
And I’ve run out of patience for things like thinking a player like Bagely is likely to be a player to build around.
Again, this is how bad organizations think. And no one throwing Bagely to the wolves. Just pointing out that it’s waaaassy more likely Bagely isn’t a player to build around than is.
Well said, again. It’s time for everyone to move on. Bagley, the fans, the front office …
We are not building around Bagley though. Why are you insisting this? We are building around Fox and Hali. Bagley is just another piece.
Why would they keep Bags? Because they think he’s part of the young core. That’s the sane as building around in my mind. They’re not holding on because they think he’ll be a role player. That’s why I’m insisting as you say.
Well, they’ve had seven winning seasons in 36 years in Sacramento, I think we’ve all been pretty patient.
Haliburton will be so much better than Bagley next season that no one would mention them in the same sentence favorably.
I’m fully on the “give Bagley tons of minutes and see for sure” train, but he’s still a guy who is a strange fit in today’s NBA. If the three point shot is real, maybe he’s a guy that adds value as a stretch big – but even in his improvement, he’s a pretty inefficient offensive player that doesn’t pass much and rebounds mostly by location. And the defense…smh.
These are the questions that many had about Bagley even prior to the draft. Haliburton, on the other hand, appears to have a toolset that could make him productive in many areas that an NBA team needs. I am way higher on Haliburton’s future than I was on Bagley in his rookie season.
Have you heard of Luka Doncic?
ad nauseam
No point in trading Bagley. You’re not getting fair value in return.
He’s still only 21 and some seven years away from his prime, whatever that may be. Let him develop and see what happens.
Look at Julius Randle, season number seven and now he’s exploding after basically being the equivalent of Bagley early in his career (an empty stats player).
This franchise needs to develop players with potential, not just throw them to the curb. Again, Bags is only 21, no point in giving up on him for a weak return.
But how many players in the league make that kind of jump 3-4 years into their career. I’d imagine that list is pretty small.
I agree that Bagley has no value in terms of trade, so you might as well hang onto him. For me, he’s got one more season at $11M but then the Kings need to decide to move on or extend him. As of today, he’s not worthy of a rookie extension like Buddy got and Bagley will likely demand.
I would say if he hasn’t shown much, he should still get a cheap extension, ala Aaron Gordon, Fultz, Anunoby. 4 years $64-$76 million.
That’s not crazy if Bagley is getting 30 mpg and is putting up 17 and 10 like his per-36 min prove.
The main point is we have his rights for the next 5 years, and he’s still an asset. Anything can happen, maybe in his age 25 season he looks closer to Randle than Beasley/Parker etc. But who knows, if not not trade him.
That ain’t cheap if you’re talking about exploring upside, IMO.
This team isn’t gonna be spending money elsewhere, so if and this is only if, Bagley does have a double double season next year and shows a little more, then he’s getting the 4 year $64 million. Based on our KANGZ circumstances we can’t let a 23 year old double double #2 pick walk for nothing.
Cap space can be traded into as well.
I’m all about seeing what Marvin has over the rest of this season, but I damn sure wouldn’t want him to have a 4/64 at this point…
Yeah, that’s a lot of money to spend on hope.
its like a reverse lottery ticket
I’d prefer a 23 year old triple double #2 pick, know anyone like that?
Yeah, that’s a real overpay for a slightly better rebounding and much worse passing Nemanja Bjelica.
I get that their athletic profiles are completely different, but if we’re talking about a decent rebounding stretch big who plays no defense, that’s where you have to value the player. Maybe a Ryan Anderson?
I think Bagley is tradable. But there is no point to actively shop him. He is always productive enough to be tradable. Just want to see if he develops.
No point in trading him for the sake of trading him but if another team is willing to give up value for him as part of a trade then the Kings should absolutely be taking those calls.
I don’t see a 1 on 1 trade involving Bagley, but I could see him as part of a larger trade. Most likely he stays though.
1000%.
Anything can happen, I mean last year it looked like Bagley would never be able to shoot, but looky looky. He seems to have developed the most important skill in today’s NBA.
Just let him gain 10-15 more pounds and give him another year with Fox and Hali, that doesn’t sound so bad.
He is improving and he is extremely young. We are rough on him because he was the 2nd pick and we passed Luka for him. But that’s not his fault.
It actually mostly is his fault. He’s not performing in a manner that would at least earn a consensus of optimism. After his rookie year, he wasn’t better than Luka but he at least played well enough to earn optimism. Consider that we instead we selected Jaren Jackson. We would still be upset we lost out on Luka, but it wouldn’t sting as bad, and we wouldn’t be discussing him getting traded for pocket lint, toe jam, and a mid to late 2nd.
He’s performing in a manner that gives more optimism than we had before the season – I realize that doesn’t change the minds of many who are really down on Bagley, but he’s shown improvement, and still at a young age.
He’s still got a ways to go and I’m still confused on how his game benefits a winning basketball team, sure. But he was at 1900 minutes played coming into this season, and these 888 have elicited some improvement.
He is performing the way that he needs to perform via improvement. I don’t know why Luka is even in this conversation. That is just your emotions talking.
I mentioned Luka because the comment I replied to mentioned him. And Bagley clearly isn’t improving enough to avoid trade talks. I don’t care if he stays or leaves ultimately. I’m largely indifferent when in comes to Bagley overall. Be mindful of the fact that if he was improving in a manner that generated optimism that he is actually a key piece for the team, this article would not have been written in the first place.
I wonder if Fox wants Bagley out and if this might affect any possible deals
That’s a good question.
Is it, though?
I like Bagley’s improvement this year. I mean if a top 10 draft pick is offered for him, I’d probably take it but I sure don’t expect that. Concerned about the report that Bjelica refused to play. Surprising. I still think Bagley can be a building block for the Kings. Wait til he’s got his 25 year old body and 4 more years of experience.
So peanuts if we trade him now.
$11 million next year for better peanuts. Sounds reasonable
That’s nuts!
Personally I think a lot of us are discounting the upside. Think about how down people were about steph curry three years into his career. The dubs were able to lock him up for waaaay below market rate and it created a title window for them (along with some other smart signings).
I’m OK with bagley taking his lumps now, and I’m sure not gonna trade him while his value is in the dumps. If he doesn’t take a leap year or next, that’s ok… lock him up at a modest rate and see if he can flourish once he has some stability in front of him.
Think about the inevitable Bagley ascendance that’d take place once he lands at a good organization run the right way. That would hurt to see. Let’s just not be hasty and who knows, maybe we can one day be that smart and stable organization that invests trust and patience into its young talent.
The issue with Bags is not just physical. His BBIQ appears to be below average. Curry was an injury risk and he possessed one elite skill and a better than average BBIQ. I just don,t see the same minimum upside with Bagley and Sac that their was for GS, and Curry. Bags is a me first guy on the sideline and in the game, while being poorly prepared to play at this level. MBII is not Dell Curry.
I would also like to say that I can imagine Bjelica schooling MBIII in every facet of th3 game in practice as he has likely done for years while now being relegated to garbage time. Fuck it Bjelica deserves to get real minutes or be traded. This franchise will move him. Do you think he will bring better value if he plays garbage minutes while Luke let’s the scrubs run wild? Again FUCK THAT!
I’m finding it difficult to give a shit how a guy who’s made twenty million dollars in the last three years, and who has no future here, feels about his station in life.
It’s a rebuilding year, and there’s no benefit to anyone to play him over Bagley. Marvin may still end up an asset to the organization. Does anyone believe that about Bjelica?
So regardless of your (assumed) callous attitude about people that are no longer useful. Why would you expect BJelly to be ok about it? Sac should extend him, or trade him. I am sure it is trade him, but injury risk is real and if the guy wants a chance to show out for another team, and get a chance at what he came to the NBA for. He could have made the same money in Europe.
It doesn’t matter in the slightest if he’s okay about it. Are you going to be all right caving into player demands if Haliburton or Fox demand to be moved in the next couple of years? Will you give a damn about their fee-fees, or is that concern only for non-core pieces who are getting fewer minutes because of Marvin Bagley?
People weren’t down on Curry based upon his court performance, the Warriors had concerns about his injury history. The Warriors knew he was going to be a star if healthy. There’s no comparison between Curry’s development with the Warriors and Bagley’s with the Kings.
I’d trade him. He’s a bench unit big man who can’t play D, getting paid $10 million, when there are probably other players the team would like to sign to fill out their roster. I don’t see more upside. His vertical is less than what it used to be, which is a weird sign for a 21 year old, and it’s painful watching the conversations between his brain and his feet.
Oh, when you put it that way, the market ought to be super-hot to acquire his services.
I think Bagley will continue to improve and eventually be a reliable 20/10 guy, so I’m in no rush. His defense is a liability, and we aren’t the only ones aware of it. He’ll never be hefty enough to battle with legit-sized centers, but using his feet to take charges is encouraging. I don’t know if he’ll ever be an average defender, but if his moves in the paint keep evolving and he can maintain his shooting from distance, there won’t be a single franchise that gives a damn about it.
Could you provide a link to the report with the details about Bagley’s decreased leaping ability? The eye test isn’t permitting me to see it.
i can see him getting 20 and 10. But most opponents can score layups on him while drinking tea and not spilling.
Bagely doesn’t contribute much to winning. Not just D but he doesn’t D board-can’t box out-
Theres a reason other GMs won’t give up much for Bags. They obviously aren’t very excited or believe in Bagely becoming good/great.
This is where I just see “meh” at best from Bagley. Just think back to when Fox was a rookie who couldn’t shoot. He still ran the offense better than George Hill, earning his starting role. He also made clutch, smart, game winning plays. With Haliburton you can also see those flashes. You don’t see that with Marvin. His stats are empty and are fool’s gold. The opposing teams scheme for him to have looks and instead focus their attention on Fox/Barnes/Hield. He is that guy that opponents say we will let him beat us. His three point shot is good, but the release is slow and he mostly gets that shot when his defender abandons him to protect the paint against Fox or in a fast break situation, because opposing defenses would rather live with that than Fox or Hield having a field day.
They won’t give up much because they know they can fleece the Kings.
Not much to suggest that this is currently true.
So that’s a no then, on providing any evidence about the decline of Bagley’s leaping ability?
So many legitimate ways to criticize Marvin Bagley, and here you are just making shit up. What good does it do you?
The problem with a big scoring 20, is doing it inefficiently at volume. Reminds me of Cousins a bit – the team was always going to have trouble generating an upper-tier offense when an inefficient scorer was dominating the ball at that end of the floor.
And especially one who doesn’t pass.
But he is not doing it inefficiently though. He is shooting 50%. And his doing this while trying to be a stretch big.
His 55% TS% is below average for a big. We have better measures than FG% these days.
And that TS% is with a three point percentage that may be unsustainable.
Carpal Tunnel 20 days
I hope they trade him by the deadline or in the offseason. That seems like enough time for the trading partner to get a good look at Bagley before he becomes a restricted free agent.
You have a point there. Next year he falls into that RFA status which may diminish his value to other teams. Teams may want a longer look at him before they are tethered to his RFA status. He will kind of fall into that John Collins status which ties up his owning team into planning their cap sheet.
And it will give him a fresh start! He’ll have a season or more with a new team without the shadow of Luka hanging over him. Give him a chance to prove the haters wrong. It’s not like he wants to be here. And he isn’t really developing here at all.
Is it really good asset management to keep Bagley? For people that don’t want to trade him now, what do you expect to happen in the future that will make trading him now a bad decision in hindsight?
Interesting points…not sure I totally agree but valid. Curious, if that’s the case what do you realistically think his value is at this point? What would make it worthwhile to move off the chance at potential upside? If you think there is any.
Personally, I’d take a young player (or two) who’s shown he has value, but doesn’t have the pedigree Bagley has, and a future first that will most likely land outside the lottery. I’m not saying this trade could happen, but like Lu Dort and one of OKCs various first round picks. Or Nwaba, Tate, plus one of Brooklyn’s future picks.
Yeah that type of deal would be an interesting conversation piece. I think I’d rather hang on to him even if the likelihood of him being a real quality starter is only 25-35% chance. Just feels that a back half first or the type of young guy that get probably doesn’t have a great shot at that. Not sure they could even get that for him right this moment though.
Tough spot bc as pointed out, next year would be worth even less if play stays same. Still feels like kind of marginal return…but maybe the Kings just need some solid “marginal moves” instead the crap ones that have bedeviled the franchise for so long. Ha
I’d also happily take Bazley or even Roby in that deal.
I’m with you RORDOG. He’s not a good player, he wants to move on, and he’s associated with franchise incompetence.
I personally don’t care what others have said about having fear he improves elsewhere. That shit happens all the time in all professional sports. It doesn’t factor into my brain at all. Do not even remotely care. I would WANT someone to succeed elsewhere, that would be awesome. Sometimes things don’t work out.
it’s ok to move on
One of the things I like about all the advanced stats is that they’ve made me realize that what you do is just as important as what you wont/can’t do. So when someone says player x averages 18 points I immediately think, but how many shots does it take player x to score 18 points? Are the points primarily created by player x or were the scoring opportunities provided to him? Does his team score more when he’s on/off the floor?
So when I watch Bagley, I see a player that won’t/can’t do enough things to contribute to winning overall. If I can get a decent young role player and a lottery ticket, then I’m more than willing to pawn off Bagley on some other team. If he does become really good, then I still wouldn’t even feel bad about it since the Kings set him free.
Here Rordog I’ll colorize it for you…
Bagley is all alone in the paint, a teammate rips a nice pass to him, easy Bagley dunk.
Repeat.
Broadcast team: Bagley is really developing.
SMH
Why do I always have to be the one who asks for the link to the interview where Bagley said he wanted out of Sacramento? Why?
Franchise incompetence about the draft, eh? Difficult to refute, admittedly. Does that apply to the selection of De’Aaron Fox at #5?
I wish that so much of the vitriol toward Bagley wasn’t rooted in him being selected by Good Old Vlade while Doncic was still on the board. It’s so boring.
Solid argument.
My only hesitation is the Kings have a right to retain an asset. Regardless of Bagley’s development next year, at least the Kings hold the keys.
I see three likely scenarios:
1) Bagley remains middle of the road and the Kings let him hit RFA. They decide what to do after another season of development with the addition of another lottery pick. If the market dictates his value and the Kings find gain in the match, then fine. If not let him walk but hope for a S&T.
2) Bagley takes a leap next year and the Kings hit RFA willing to match any offer. This is the most hopeful scenario.
3) Bagley flounders and the Kings renounce his rights and he walks for no return. This is the WCS model.
Of those, I think #1 is the most likely scenario. Either way, the Kings have no urgency to trade him unless they think he is a total sunk cost or he is a valued addition to a much larger package. If he’s a sunk cost case, however, I’m confident the other 29 GMs are already aware of that and he has about as much value as Cory Joseph.
I think he’ll flat-out refuse to re-sign here, and then good luck in getting anything out of a S&T.
You do best to trade him ultimately the upcoming offseason.
Yeah, very possible. Total wildcard scenario, without it really being a wild idea from that camp.
This is very likely and would justify prompt action by McNair.
Rik posits that Bagley will absolutely resist remaining in Sacramento when he becomes RFA. You’ve bought into that, and propose a swift response by the GM.
I mean, how far out on these flimsy-limbed imagined scenarios are you willing to crawl?
Do you want Bags poisoning the team next year? Bjelica is worth a 2nd and likely provides mote chemistry and winning than MBIII. Are you willing to let Hali and next years #1 see someone playing who hasn’t earned it? That is not winning organization shit. Trade him at the deadline or at latest in the off season. I think GM.s are more likely to trade away assets at the deadline, as their ass is on the line. The offseason allows for more rational thinking.
How is Bags poisoning the team? Let’s not lay the father’s baggage at the son’s door.
Not him directly but the Coach awarding him unearned minutes is a quick way to poison a team
If a team attempting to evaluate their #2 pick before they have to make a decision on a contract extension pisses off the rest of the roster, seems like that’s on them.
These guys don’t play well enough to dictate anything longterm, IMO. But I generally disagree that this team is “poisoned” by Bagley’s minutes and Bjelly on the bench.
Based on Amick’s write up, the situation is poisonous to at least BJelly. They need to trade him soon. Also how does the idea of playing a lesser player connect to winning. You want guys who are here to win, not get their money/minutes? Again I understand the need to work Bagley, but you need to extend the guy you are sitting or set him free. Such as GRIII.
By being played in minutes that he hasn’t earned. I actually could care less about his Dad. I understand the need to see what he can be, but how does that fly with a guy like BJelly? In a contract year and playing behind a guy who may never see the court like the Serb can. How do you tell a competitive vet to sit and watch. Add to that his complete lack of enthusiasm for defense, and other players success’.
He did earn them though, by being a high first round pick in the draft.
Bjelica was Vlade’s guy and not a long term part of this team. Unless the concept was “win now”, I’m not sure why his minutes are more important than Bagley’s development.
You’re right, but that’s equally and probably more true of CoJo, as well as Barnes and Buddy, to a lesser degree.
Fascinating how Fox is inevitably exempted from these analyses. Are we grandfathering Swipa back to Geoff Petrie?
His minutes aren’t earned. Okay.
Most players who come into the league haven’t earned any minutes, but because they are often sent to shitty teams, they play, anyway.
“But he’s in his third year!”
And missed huge hunks of his rookie and sophomore season. Marvin is still figuring out how to compete in the NBA, and he’s shown real improvements in aspects of his game. These are all facts, and if he hasn’t “earned” his minutes, according to you, then:
“Yeah, well, Luka.”
Y’all should just lead with that. Your beef is with VD, but you don’t know how to direct it properly, because one time, he played a crucial role on one of the best third-place finishers in sports history.
Marvin Bagley will likely not be the component that leads the organization to greatness.
Nor will dumping him for squat move things closer to that goal.
Okay, so those who want to trade Bagley now are either Bagley haters, or just pining for Luka?
It can’t have anything to do with his lack of production, his terrible D, his non-existent BBIQ, his tunnel vision, his appaling lack of fundamentals etc.?
We should just celebrate his incremental improvement and his great counting stats in a small sample size of approx. 10 recent games, I guess?
Ignore that the improvement is set against a baseline that was horribly bad? I mean, it would have been atrocious if he didn’t improve.
Well, for starters, the beef with Bagley/pining for Luka isn’t so much an “or” as an “and.” The two things are inseparable because B, therefore A.
“Marvin isn’t improving!”
Bagley shows improvement
“He isn’t improving fast enough!”
He’s played a little more than 100 games, and his per 36 numbers are 20.5 ppg/10.7 rpg/1.1 blocks per game.
“But his defense is terrible!”
That’s true.
“That’s why Bjelica should get more minutes!”
Bjelica’s DRtg is 121, and Bagley’s is a less-bad 119.
One guy is likely staying, and another guy is definitely leaving. Seems like playing the guy who’s staying is the better way to evaluate what the team will need going forward.
Come on Rik, you can certainly see that most of the arguments applied here are working under the assumption that Bagley is a lost cause.
For me, Bagley has shown some improvement over the minutes he’s received this season. And his total career minutes puts him right around where Fox was in career minutes played about 20 games into his sophomore season – and at that point, there were big question marks about Fox (still are, to be honest).
Personally, I don’t think Bagley is an answer long term. But I think your second paragraph is way overstated, and Bagley has made strides in some of those areas.
This is dumbest take. That is Luke’s fault not Bagley. You can totally play both Bjelly and Bagley.
Th assumption is Luke has been tasked with playing Bags in order to Susa out his real value by the FO. Either way Bags<BJelly if winning was the goal. If winning isnt the goal why should the vets give 2 shits?
Why does a fresh start matters? Give me a top five pick this year and I’ll trade him. Not because Bagley wants a fresh start. I don’t care about “shadow of Luka.” That is just fan talk. Bagley will always be productive enough to be tradable. He is a 15 and 8 guy at minimum. What do we gain from trading him now? Get fleeced?
how many additional wins does that 15 and 8 get you versus a league avg player? Say for instance Bagley get traded for JaMychal Green. Are the Kings significantly worse post trade?
We have to consider that on a better team, Bagley would almost certainly be getting fewer minutes. His per 100 offensive number float around the same tier as guys like Portis and Achiuwa.
FREE BELLY!
To Golden State for 2nd, a young scrub, and a Ball gag for Vivek.
Send him to Thibs. He’ll make Marvin play D. We’ll take Markkanan. Throw in Joseph/Bjelica to make salaries work.
Carter/Bagley could be a good frontline for Thibs.
If only Thibs coached the Bulls…
Let’s get that time machine to go back and change a few picks…. and FO folks!
We just need to change one pick, somewhere around June 2018.
LOL
LOL … I volunteer to drive him to the airport. Can’t happen soon enough.
count me in….lol
just a relieve for some of us…no longer need to see him being out-rebounded, being stripped, and his low BBIQ just keep hurting my eyes…
If they did trade Bagley I’d look for a deal with minnesota sending bags there for culver and mcdaniels.
They are stacked at sg due to winning this last draft and getting edwards which made culver expendable plus he wasn’t killing it anyways but still tons of potential, especially in the defensive side. Plus we get mcdaniels as the prospect replacement for bags.
Offensively for minn bagley fits about as perfectly as you can find with KAT and would be more productive then the pieces they are losing, defensively…
That trade I do like.
Can we get Vanderbilt too?
If Bagley has no value, just keep him. He improved his 3 point shooting. Maybe he finally develops some post moves next season in his contract year.
There is no way that this team wins with Bagley and Hield on the floor for significant minutes. Neither can defend, and neither shows the likelihood that they will do so in the future. One, if not both, have to be traded. There’s a reason why the Kings started playing horrible defense when Bagley started getting more minutes. So, if the Kings are going to keep Bagley around and hope he gets better, Buddy has to go.
Buddy has to go is a given.
I always forget those tenacious defensive teams that Sacramento put on the floor year after year before Marvin Bagley was picked.
Hahaha…I knew it was true, but had to look up how bad. Last time Kings had better than a bottom 10 defensive rating…2006. Good lord : (
Big ups to Ron-Ron.
Oddly enough, a team with Buddy as its leading minutes guy and Marvin playing nearly 1,600 minutes won 39 games not so long ago.
Fun fact I realized today: If current results hold, after this season the Kings will have a 15 year drought. Second place will be 4.
Yeah, Phoenix and the Knicks get off the list. Crazy.
And Charlotte at the moment.
Badge Legend