The Kings Herald Show returns following another good summer league run for the Sacramento Kings. They didn't take home the championship this time, but Summer League MVP Keegan Murray sounds like a win to me.
For the first half of the podcast this week, hear Jerry Reynolds, Will Griffith, and Tony Xypteras talk about Keegan Murray's dominance, promising performances from Keon Ellis and Neemias Queta, and more of your typical Kings news commentary.
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In addition to our bi-weekly podcast with Jerry Reynolds, we also record a Patreon exclusive Q+A once a month where Patrons at any level can Ask Jerry Anything.
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In 2019 the Kings won 39 games, Minnesota 36 wins, Pelicans, Grizzlies, Dallas all had 33 wins, Phoenix 19 wins. The Kings are looking up at all of those teams now. Don’t be surprised if we are looking up at Detroit, Houston, OKC and Orlando in a couple of years. The Kings are employing the same playbook now. Thinking they are just a piece away from being championship competitive. They went out and added Barnes in 2019 and followed that up with some free agents Cojo, Dedmon,etc and things went downhill from there. The teams below them built through the draft and you see the results.
I do think this roster is improved and they may grab somewhere between 35 and 40 wins but I don’t see them competing with the top 8 teams in the west. The challenge going forward is how do the Kings continue to improve now working with one less first round pick. Barnes is gone after this year and the Sabonis resigning talks will begin. We will have to give Sabonis a max contract for him to even consider staying with the Kings. The only long term hope for this team IMO rests with Murray and Mitchell who will have to perform beyond expectations and within an accelerated time frame. Idk but this seems eerily similar to 2019 where things appeared to be turning around and then we made the Barnes acquisition and some free agent signings. Something also interesting and perplexing, we drafted Gary Trent jr in the second and inexplicably traded him away. Now we give up our second round for future seconds which is mind boggling to me. Let’s keep our eye on Hardy and hope it’s now another Trent jr. type move.
The next move(s) the Kings make will be interesting especially with one less trade chip. I’d be watching what happens with Durant, Kyrie and Harden and maybe pick up some collateral damage from those moves. I really like what Houston and Detroit are doing and wish the Kings would have pursued a similar route. Let’s see what happens but I predict improvement this year followed by stagnation. I just don’t see how this works with Fox and Sabonis on max contracts and seemingly no willingness to exceed the salary cap. Now we got $16 mil a year tied up in Huerter so there’s very little room to add to this roster going forward. Which of these teams do we surpass.
Warriors –
Phoenix
Denver – Murray and others back from injuries
Dallas
Memphis
Minnesota
New Orleans
Clippers – George and KL back from injury
Lets see what Utah does and don’t be surprised if OKC passes us.
In general, I agree with your record predictions, but for a minor point of clarification, the Kings didn’t REALLY draft Trent Jr. or Hardy. Or, rather, they didn’t make the decision to draft them. Or Martin Jr. Or Tillman. The Blazers, Mavs, Rockets, and Grizzlies did, respectively. There’s no reason to think the Kings would have taken Trent Jr. (or Hardy) if they were intending to roster the player chosen with that pick.
True but they were available to the Kings. The more perplexing point is why the Kings traded out of the second rounds then and this year.
I certainly don’t have the answer to that. I’m personally of the opinion that they Kings need to be mining team-controlled talent in any way possible. There’s always 2nd round talent to be found, and the chance of hitting on that lottery ticket is incredibly valuable in terms of team-building/cap allocation. In general, I feel like I’m usually the high man on the value of 2nd round picks.
Agree. The Kings went into this draft with the 4th overall pick and 2 second round picks and walked away with Murray only. It’s not about the Murray pick which was pretty much projected with the exception of IVey, it just seems to me for a team trying to win now you would have liked to capture some additional assets. Especially when you’re cap restricted, you have to have players rostered who are outperforming their contracts. To me it’s going to be difficult to assemble a roster around two max players like Fox and Sabonis. I realize we have a little time still for Sabonis and technically right now he’s performing slightly above his contract.
Given how he performed in LVSL, Keon Ellis looks to be someone who could very well outperform his two-way contract. To my mind, that signing at least partially offsets not using this year’s #37 pick on a current player.
I agree with this. I was as pissed on draft night as anyone that they didn’t draft someone, but given how quick they agreed to terms with Ellis (on draft night), methinks that said two-way contract was agreed to in advance. Makes me care less about the ‘wasted assets’ of trading the 2nds for future 2nds/Sasha.
If Ellis can turn his LVSL run into a great year in Stockton and then become a meaningful bench 3-and-D wing, the Kings could finally get a diamond in the rough and avoid the history of “our first pick will succeed or bust” draft approach.
I see Ellis as a Terrance Mann guy- play at end of quarters for D.
That’s how the LAC started Mann like that.
Agreed. I was pissed also. And I’m feeling much better about it now, as Ellis looks intriguing. I hope he doesn’t bust or end up banished to Gulag (Stockton).
Always remember that Kris Middleton, Jokic and Ginobli were 2nd rounders. Great spot to take chances . Forgot D Green and where would Dubs be without out that 2nd rd pick ?
I kind of feel the 2nd round picks have become more and more valuable as more and more players of quality can be found there. They should not be sold away for near nothing.
Just last year Herb Jones and Ayo Dosunmu were taken in the 2nd round and are already NBA players. Those 2 were 3rd and 6th in minutes played by rookies
perplexing
So far Hardy does not look like he will live up to the Trent, Jr, result. After a good first game at LVSL, he repressed to his G League performance. As Greg Swarz of Bleacher Report noted…
The conversation doesn’t actually have much to do with Hardy specifically. Personally, I’m not a big fan of Hardy. It’s about the potential value of the low-cost, low-risk shot 2nd round picks represent.
In general, I think the Kings have under-utilized less-traditional methods of talent acquisition. Things like valuing 2nd round picks, G-League FAs, Euro FAs, Euro-stash picks, using cap space to take on contracts + assets, etc. When you have one avenue taken from you (high impact FAs), IMO, you have to be more creative and clever with team-building methods than the Kings have been.
Kings 100% need to be better at finding talent on the margins. The good teams do. Sacramento hasn’t since IT.
I think they are looking at players on the margins, they just aren’t going about it the way you would.
If that’s a viable strategy longer term that remains to be seen. But that’s how I see it at this point, though.
Finding players on the margins for this team is critical. I think Monte tried- Ellis, Sasha but not enough
It’s not about Hardy. It’s perplexing they didn’t you the second round picks creatively to get mor assets. If you say and act like you’re making a playoff push why would you not attempt to utilize those picks. Now it makes sense if you’re on a longer term plan but that’s not how they are behaving. It’s an inconsistent plan if you can call it a plan.
First things first, you’re not one of the cows writing advertisements for Chick Fil A are you?
What type of contract — particularly length of deal — do you offer? What type of minutes are you willing to commit to that player? What is the most reasonable expectation you have of that player?
You are criticizing spelling and grammar?
I was amusing myself over the spelling of ‘mor.’
Yeah. You should muse over some of the garbage you write before being an ass to everyone.
It’s good to be the King.
I did complete my thought. Perhaps your understanding of my reference needs work, hmm?
Yet you continue to respond. Am I to assume that you enjoy partaking in this horrendously huge amount of useless shit writing?
King of what?
Complete a thought like they do in the third grade.
No worries though. It is well known you are king of useless and absurdly long rambling rants.
Understanding references is important kemo-sabe. And, you, my friend, are a very strange horse.
Like I said, it’s good to be the King.
You done writing about the size of your penis and your strange fantasies as a response to criticism?
That is a step in the right direction.
Do you need a hug?
Hehehe Wiz. I was waiting for somebody to put something like this up. 😂😂😂
It was a joke. Lighten up. I did not get the sense that is was pejorative.
It took me a minute before I got the joke. But when I did I found it amusing.
Summer league . Trent was very mediocre in Summer league .
Agree with a great deal but not sure how you make the team better than by the solid steps Monte took this season and continuing to build off that .
By blowing it up.
There are just 3 players left from the Vlade era when Monte took over less than 2 years ago: Fox, Barnes, and Holmes, all three of which are quality NBA players, and I’d put money on two of those guys being gone by the deadline.
That’s pretty blown up.
That’s not blowing it up at all. Blowing it up means bottoming out to land a top pick. Aside from that, continually building around Fox isn’t blowing it up either. He hasn’t proven he is a winner in this league yet you’re making moves with him as the lead dog in mind, makes no sense.
Blowing it up means a true rebuild which is done by sucking as bad as possible for top picks. As good as Murray looks like he can be, there’s a big difference between his ceiling and that of Chet and Banchero.
But tradeing away Fox isn’t that simple with him being on a rookie max extension contract. Not every team has the ability to trade for that kind of deal. Plus, the OKCs, Utahs, Orlandos, and Houstons of the world traded away multi-year all-stars to get the picks they have. The Kings just don’t have those kind of assets to “blow it up”
As you said:
If you admit that, what do you expect to get in return with the teams that could trade for him? Who was the last non-all-star to get traded early into his first max contract? I honestly can’t think of one.
Wiggins is the only guy I can think of that was traded on his rookie extension, but that was done at near the end of his deal and he COST the T-Wolves a pick to move him!
Lastly, I’d also argue that they aren’t building around Fox. It’s Sabonis that is the lead dog now.
Ben Simmons was the other in recent times, FWIW.
I only excluded him because he was a muti-year all-star and a DPOY candidate, but you are right, he was also traded on a rookie extension deal. Wiggins felt more like a talent and contract comp to Fox, IMO. Both were non stars on what felt like max contract overpays.
All that being said, the two rookie extension players that were traded in recent memory actually cost picks by the team that traded them. Swell.
Not any team in the NBA that wants Fox with his current contract.
This simply isn’t true. The question is whether or not the price is worth giving up Fox at this point for the KIngs (I maintain it is not).
Which team wants Fox and his max deal?
Yet Mitchell likely to bring in a crazy haul…shit is weird and wild lol
KANgz and kANgz fans…,l
You stated the Kings don’t have the assets to blow it up. On the contrary the Kings don’t have the assets to build a championship competitive team. If the Kings were to blow it up it means moving Barnes, Holmes and Fox which I support.
Do you not understand how moving Fox is extremely difficult and could potentially cost the Kings to move him? He’s unlikely to get a positive return and Barnes and Holmes aren’t getting the Kings anything better than a late first round pick.
Maybe you could move Fox from some prospects and a fat expiring deal, but that’s not gonna increase the lottery odds with Mitchell and prospects eating up Fox’s minutes. At best you do it to simply get out of his deal.
Maybe you could move Barnes and Holmes for an ugly contract like Gordon Hayward or Tobias Harris and a future lottery protected pick, but neither is gonna move the needle in the win/loss column.
I’d argue that if you could hypothetically move all three of Fox, Barnes, and Holmes tomorrow, the Kings would be no more “blown up” than at any point in the last 16 years and with little to no more assets in the cupboard than they already have today.
You might as well go and compete with incremental improvements like Murray, Monk and Huerter on good deals that add to the asset cupboard for maybe something big down the road.
If I’m Monte, I’m sitting on Fox, Barnes, and Holmes until someone is willing to pay either due to injuries or contention desperation.
The Knicks coveted Fox for quite some time. He was movable for some time, the Kings have just stuck with him for whatever reason across two GM’s.
Vlade passed on Luka in part due to Fox.
Hali was traded because of Fox.
Ivey was passed on in part due to Fox.
Fox is still only 24 so I just hope he improves and lives up to this extreme faith the franchise has shown in him. But I’ll believe it when I see it.
I disagree completely with these two statements and I think you are assuming too much:
Hali was traded to get a two time all-star in Sabonis who is now the best player and cornerstone of the franchise.
Ivey was passed on because Monte 100% felt Murray was the better player. He said it himself.
Right we should believe Monte’s statement. What do you expect him to say, We thought IVey was the BPA but since we had Fox Murray was a better fit. That’s might be closer to the truth.
What is this WE shit? I had Murray as #3 BPA on my board. If your paradigm is Ivey was the best player and mine was Murray, then don’t presume to know what Monte thought. Why not take him at his word rather than your personal bias?
You have to remember, we’re living in a post-truth world where, to many people, less evidence means more proof.
Monte clearly would have said what he said either way. But it’s just as, or more, likely to be earnest as it is to be spin.
Monte picked Hali and Mitchell with fox. Why wouldn’t he pick Ivey if he thought he was best player available. There’s proof he would. He liked Murray over Ivey. So did I. I’m not sure why that’s so hard to understand.
Because it doesn’t fit the narrative that the franchise is moving heaven and earth to illustrate they are right in building around Fox.
I mean, I guess you could say Hali was traded because they had decided to trade from their G depth to acquire a difference maker at another position and they may have found Fox wasn’t garnering the same level of interest from other teams. But that’s still just speculation.
This is all true. I would have taken that deal with the Knicks that supposedly included Toppin, Quickly, Walker, and their first round pick.
As for Holmes, if Phoenix didn’t sign Ayton apparently they were interested in Holmes. I agree that Holmes is probably underwater. Might be able to pick up an expiring an save the last two years on his contract. Barnes previously had trade value but now being in his final year of his contract he’s not likely to bring back much. At one time they were talking Barnes to Boston for Pritchard, Nesmith and one of their first round picks. I would have taken that deal and the deal with New York and I think we would be in a better place.
Do we have any evidence of this? I mean, fans and writers speculate on trades all the time, but that doesn’t mean it reflects the feelings in FOs. Do we have any actual insight from anyone in or close to the Knicks org to verify their interest?
Nobody has that insight but two news agencies reported the proposed deal that the Knicks initiated
This comment should be the first comment of every thread as a reminder of the reality of the situation. Really really well said. In my opinion.
although a Barnes and Holmes for Tobias Harris trade I think does move the needle. A little bit. Gordon Hayward on theory would too but the injury history makes it less appealing/ a bigger risk.
This cannot happen soon enough.
I don’t understand the rush to dump Holmes. He was the heart and soul of the team until he got injured and and his wife went crazy.
The guy’s a great on-ball defender, underrated paint scorer, and good teammate. Hate to see him shuffled off in a nothing deal.
I don’t think there is a rush to “dump” Holmes, it’s just asset management. I love the guy, but I also realize paying backup center $12M a year behind your best player is not good management. If Holmes were your starting center at $12M, then fine. Everything changed with the addition of Sabonis.
Since Holmes is a very capable player, perhaps not great but certainly good, I feel that both he and Barnes could be of value to playoff contending teams due to injuries to starters, or a team looking for one more piece to bolster a title run much like the Celtics dealing for White at the deadline. Unless Monte has a specific player targeted, I wouldn’t mind waiting to see how the season shakes out a bit and see what value he could get from teams who are shopping for veteran help.
“And now, The Airing of the Grievances!“
agree with frustrations. The 2019 teams that passed the Kings all had one thing in common- a high pick – higher than the Kings who turned out to be a star. * exception- Luka
Picks matter and high picks that are on target make a significant a difference.
Edwards, Zion, Ja, Ayton.
With the picks the Kings had (with one exception) they have done well.
I am just not sure if any team can jump unless they get this sort of luck.
Kings may pass Utah. But the rest? depends on injury I think + Portland and LAL.
I disagree big time and think you think your smarter than everyone ala Hinke.
Monte has us in a solid short and long term position.
What you failed to mention about 2019 is Vlade fired a high quality coach and brought in Luke…that was devastating to that team. I firmly believe we end the playoff drought that following year if DJ was still the coach.
You can believe what you want again but there’s absolutely no evidence to support your position. The coach in place had multiple years to,produce a winning record which he didn’t do. Certainly not all his fault and these records are primarily roster dependent. So now we are supposed to believe if we kept him one more year he would have us in the playoffs. Try supporting that argument. It’s not as weak as your argument of Fox over Donovan Mitchell but it’s close.
A coach doesn’t turn the shitshow around over night but DJ had the team improving year over year and more importantly had a team identity with players being used to their strengths.
His firing was a disaster for the team.
I agree with Kings-Rebuild’s points, this is an improved team but still a play-in team at best. If MM wants to save his job, he should really swing for the fences:
Kings: Donovan Mitchell
Knicks: Fox
Jazz: Two firsts rounders from the Kings and however many from the Jazz.
Whatever salary filler is needed.
Mitchel
Mitchel
Huerter
Murray
Sabonis
Monk, HB, Holmes, TD
I thought you didn’t want players who haven’t won anything yet. What has Donovan Mitchell won?
And I’d not be surprised at all if Fox had better scoring and assist numbers than Mitchell this season. DM is a sieve on defense, and that was with Gobert erasing a lot of his mistakes. He’d have no such luxury here, even if team defense improves.
If I’m going to have $135 million owed to a player, I’d just assume it went to Fox, particularly given how well he played alongside Sabonis. And we’d still have a couple of draft selections that you’ve cavalierly tossed in.
Mitchell is a fun player, but I’m not digging an organizational hole just to swap him for Fox.
I’m with you on Donovan Mitchell. Until proven otherwise I see him as the second coming of Monta Ellis.
For shits and giggles HERE are the side by side stats from each at age 25. Keep in mind only one got to play with a 3 time DPOY coving their ass.
Not a Donavan Mitchell fan but he is a several time All Star and best player on several 50 win teams . Much better than Fox or Monta . Do agree that trading for him would not improve much since it would take several assets to get him . Also, why Knicks will not improve very much if they get him .
I feel the Knicks trade for him because he’s a local boy, all-star, and has been “the best player on several 50 win teams.” He’d also help to sell tickets.
He’d be their new Carmelo, and would bring them about as much success. Melo took took the Knicks to 3 playoffs in 7 years…but he got his stats!
Never really understood why Melo wanted to go to the Knicks. Still don’t. Melo’s career overall disappointed me.
I never got it either. That Nuggets team could have easily retooled and eventually got a chip I think. I understand him wanting to go “home” but that trade took most of the good players the Knicks had at the time. If he just waited til free agency they would have been pretty deep. In a way it kind of makes sense all the 1st round picks flying around for big trades opposed to trading half the team away
I am with you as well Sims (and Adam of course 🙂 ). I think Mitchell is overrated by some because he’s played on winning Jazz teams. A very good player, certainly, but he’s not someone I dump the Brinks truck for (like what the Wolves did with Gobert) to acquire.
I think it’s a matter of how desperate the Knicks get to acquire Mitchell. They might get desperate, but the Jazz might have already gotten their haul. They might have to accept a really good deal for Mitchell and live with it.
Truth be told, I’d rather have Gobert than Mitchell, but I’m guessing I’m in the minority.
Lots of dudes can score, but few can defend the way Gobert does.
You should go back and watch some Jazz games and I think you’d change your opinion.
I know he can score. The dude is a gifted scorer, but so were guys like Lou Williams and Jamal Crawford, or more recently like Tyler Hero or Jordan Clarkson.
I guess my point is, you can find guys that get you buckets. It is finding the guys that fill the other needs like that is harder.
Gobert is a 3X DPOY. Those don’t grow on trees. When was the last time a DPOY player missed the playoffs? I honestly don’t know, but I’m guessing it hasn’t happened this century. I might even wager that it has never happened.
Eh, all those other guys were below average in scoring efficiency the vast majority of their career. Which is a pretty darned big deal when we’re talking about high USG, high FGA players. I mean, Mitchell has been the engine of an offense that was #1 last season and #3 the previous season.
You mention later that Mitchell just replaced Hayward’s production, but we should also point out he did that as a rookie and the version of Hayward whose production he replaced was an excellent player.
Ultimately, I think the pendulum has swung too far on him. You’re right that you can find guys that can get you buckets. But only a handful of ball-handlers/creators can do it with above average efficiency.
I think the market has gone a bit crazy with the Gobert trade and KD speculation, but I don’t think that means we have to understate Mitchell’s quality. He’s not a top 10 player, but he’s solidly a top 30 player in his early prime that has proven he can be the primary offensive engine for a top offense and successful team.
TBH, I’d blow it up were I the Jazz. I don’t think Gobert or Mitchell are true foundational pieces. I’m skeptical about how much Gobert helps the Wolves, but I believe they have one player who will end up being better than Mitchell in Anthony Edwards.
I don’t think the Jazz will get as much for Mitchell than Gobert but I might be wrong.
You would blow up the Jazz but you think the Kings should not be blown up?
Small difference between those two teams. One of them competes and wins. The other is the worst team in the history of the NBA.
One of those teams has all-stars that will get you rebuildable pieces and picks, the other does not…unless you are willing to move Sabonis.
Sabonis is the core of this team now. We agree.
The Jazz with six role players will beat the Kings every time as they stand now. No reason to say that the Jazz should be blown up and the Kings should continue to build around Fox.
I think we agree that the Jazz are a better team. Kings should have been blown up at least ten times in the last fifteen years. Sabonis is the only piece with real value in the NBA. So build around Sabonis or trade him for a new core. That new core should not include Fox. Fox has has shown he will not lead to wins,
You are 100 percent correct. They keep employing the same plan and getting the same results. Why keep players like Barnes and Fox when they haven’t had any success with them. They had a chance apparently to move Barnes to Boston for a decent haul and I would have traded Fox to the Knicks for Toppin, Quickly, Walker and their first round pick.
What a great reply.
One is a first ballot-lock Hall of Fame guy, and the other is a Camaro with flames painted on the sides. Sure, it’s flashy and fast, but don’t ever count on it to get you anywhere.
Scorers can be had, they are not particularly rare. Gobert distorts offenses the way Curry distorts defenses. Rudy remains the better, and importantly, more valuable of the two.
It’s all about team needs. Both are very good to great. If your team needs a ball-handler/creator, Mitchell is obviously better. If your team needs interior defense, there’s no one better than Gobert. In general, Mitchell’s archetype is the more valuable one even if he performs in that archetype at a relatively lower level than Gobert does in his. Overall, I’d say they have pretty similar value.
Oh Geez, Mitchell is sooooooo much better than Ellis was. My god, what are we posting these days.
I’m guessing you didn’t click on the link.
The numbers are eerily similar to say the least.
I think it is also important to note that the Jazz were 51-31 before Mitchell joined the team. They’ve only matched that win total once in the 5 years since he has been a member of the Jazz. It’s not like he joined a losing team and made them a contender. He basically replaced the production of Gordon Hayward.
Rudy Gobert, however was on a 25 win team his rookie year where he averaged 9 minutes per game in just 45 games (he spend a good chunk in the G-League). By his 3rd season where he was starting and getting significant minutes (31 MPG) the Jazz won 40 games…then the 51-31 win season the year after.
This is a very good point. Mitchell in a lot of ways, as I’ve heard it said, was really brought in to replace George Hill. It just turned out he was much better than that and was able to replace Hayward’s production plus some.
Gobert and Hayward really kickstarted that thing.
Like I initially said, I wouldn’t really build around Gobert or Mitchell as core pieces as both are just really too flawed to be a top 2 pieces on a championship contender anyway.
Oh wow, I didn’t realize he was pegged as the Hill replacement. What’s interesting is he has been slotted next to a true PG since coming into the league. First it was with Rubio, and then it was with Conley.
Yes, Mitchell can run the offense, but he’s also shared the court with pass first guards. It would be interesting to examine his catch and shoot percentages vs. his off the dribble shots. The situation kind of reminds me of DWade and Beal as a “lead off guard” (not coining the term but I think it works). It’s not a bad thing, but a lead ball handler is still needed.
I think that is what distinguishes him from Fox, for whatever that is worth.
I agree with you though, neither should be the #1 option on a contender. I actually think the sum of Gobert and Mitchell was greater than their parts.
FWIW, I think Gobert is going to work wonders in Minny. I’m guessing I’m on an island when I feel they will be a top 4 seed in the West.
I agree.
Yeah, I can see this. A lot depends on Edwards. Which was really true regardless of Gobert anyway.
I didn’t make it up. It might have been Jerry Reynolds who said it, but I honestly don’t remember now.