Thank you everyone for your fabulous questions this week. Let’s jump right in!
From TheFifthMookie:
What is the number of injuries / games missed threshold before the team has to move on from MBIII? Is there any scenario where they don’t offer him the extension?
Tim: “Moving on” feels like a common theme when discussing Marvin Bagley on the interwebs, but I don’t really understand that desire from an organizational structure. If moving on means trading Bagley, I don’t see that as a realistic possibility, as he holds very little value in the moment, due to his on-court limitations, his contract cost, and his health. He’s probably sitting right around the value of Markelle Fultz when he was dealt to the Orlando Magic, and he garnered a top-20 protected first round pick and a second rounder: not exactly a bounty. And even if Marvin would provide a little of a higher value than that, let’s say a pick in the teens in the 2020 draft, his potential is too high for that paltry of a return. Including him in a package for a higher-tier player also doesn’t feel realistic, as the Kings don’t have any other quality young players to send along to assist in a rebuild.
If “moving on” means cutting or not guaranteeing Bagley’s option, that also feels preemptive and foolish. The Kings don’t need $10 million of cap space. They need stars to put next to De’Aaron Fox, and as scary as it sounds, Marvin Bagley is their best hope of finding that long-term partner for Fox. The Kings are stuck with Marvin Bagley and Marvin Bagley is stuck with the Kings.
Will: To put this second question first, I just don’t see a scenario where the Kings don’t offer him an extension. Even with the various random injuries he’s seemed to acquire since joining the Kings, a cost controlled asset like Bagley is worth offering an extension on. Remember, Vivek was a minority owner of the Warriors back when Steph Curry had ankles made of soggy corn chips and signing Steph to the team friendly extension was the biggest reason that the Warriors had the room to sign the players that got them over the hump and into championship consideration to begin with. Ownership and management alike may very well see Bagley’s injuries as freak in occurrence and may choose to see the silver lining, offer him a decent amount of money and then hope to hell he grows into a monster during those next four years. For the franchise to move on from him completely would take nothing less than the tearing of an achilles, ACL or MCL. Even then, I would expect them to be hesitant.
Rich: I’m struggling with how to discuss Bagley. I wrote a whole article about how expectations of him should be lowered dramatically. Then I saw Buddy ask the media not to talk about him too much. On the surface, I think that’s a bit silly. The media is a scapegoat for too many things, and you can’t ask us not to cover important news. But Buddy is right when he says Bagley is young and going through a lot. So basically I’m going to be honest, but tread as lightly as possible here.
There is no numerical threshold that will kick in for Bagley. It’s too complicated for anything like that. If you mean moving on in terms of literally trading or declining an option, I would say that seems like an overreaction. But as far as moving on from his perceived potential, I’m all for it. Bagley can’t be viewed as an essential part of the future. If he makes it big then he makes it big, but for now he’s just another player that has to earn his spot in the rotation.
From Kangzville:
So…is Bagley a bust?
Tim: Not yet. Has he been headed in that direction over the last 12 months? Yes, but his song is far from being finished. There’s every chance that Marvin has simply had some bad luck injury-wise, he gets healthy over the next few months, and he enjoys a career full of 75+ game seasons. I would wait until the end of Bagley’s rookie contract, at a minimum, before confidently calling him a bust.
Will: I’ve always been pessimistic about Bagley and I truly didn’t see his transcendence in college and how he was supposed to be the franchise cornerstone that Vlade and Company had selected him to be. That being said, I think there is a distinction to be made here: the second overall pick in the 2018 draft itself was a bust, the player selected however, is not. Vlade blew that pick. We can rehash it till the end of our days. I plan to. But, I really hesitate to call any 20 year old a bust. Marvin’s first few seasons have been suckerpunches. Even when he has played well, he’s never played as well as He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Drafted and while that isn’t fair to Bagley, the comparison will be there forever. The injuries have been more than deflating for fans and it sounds like from Buddy Hield’s perspective, they’re starting to weigh on Bagley as well. I truly think that if Bagley’s injuries are freakish in nature and he can play 70+ games in the next handful of seasons to come, he can get himself to fringe All-Star level production. Never the production needed to eclipse a couple of players picked after him, but enough for the fanbase not to talk about it any longer. Bagley has the raw tools necessary to quiet us down a bit, he just needs the opportunities to grow into that player. The pick was a bust, Bagley isn’t.
Rich: Here I go again being overly diplomatic, but the term bust is too loaded for me to apply to a second year player that has shown legitimately positive flashes. Will he be what Kings fans expected from the number two overall pick? No. But he could still finish his career as a top-ten player from his draft class. Until that possibility is off the table, I don’t think he can be considered a bust.
From Kingsguru21:
If you could change anything about the organization, what would you change?
Tim: The unprofessional, inexplicable decision making that’s exhibited from the very top to the very bottom. The fact that the Kings frequently make mistakes isn’t the primary source of frustration for most of the fan base. It’s the fact that the organization constantly makes errors that no other franchise could make, simply because leadership refuses to acknowledge that the “normal” way of doing things may hold some value.
Vivek Ranadive hired a coach before a GM, fired a succesful coach because that GM manipulated him, then hired another coach before his next GM, fired another couple of coaches, and then hired Vlade Divac as the GM – a man with zero experience in an NBA front office. That decision directly led to Vlade Divac drafting several players, in part because they simply said they wanted to come to Sacramento. It also led to Divac firing another talented coach, in favor of his friend, who he handed the job with no actual search being performed. And let’s not forget that one of Vlade’s best friends has been promoted throughout the years, to the point in which he’s now the second-ranking official in the front office.
It’s these mind-boggling, unorthodox decisions that have cost the Kings a decade-plus playoff drought. If the team started to follow some traditional paths, they might actually find themselves a modicum of success.
Will: This might be a bit different and maybe even a bit counter-intuitive, but if I could change a single thing, the thing that I feel like would do the most good for the Sacramento Kings franchise and their fans¦ I would add a couple of zeroes to the end of Vivek’s net worth. Taking Vivek from $700 million to $70 billion would allow Vivek the freedom to screw up as often as he wanted to without worrying about cost. As a Silicon Valley guy, I’m sure he’s used to constant tinkering and tooling, building and scrapping and rebuilding and taking him into Steve Ballmer money would allow him to dump a coach accused of sexual assault and keep moving, dump a GM who he extended after a single decent season, hire Sam Hinkie and let him be a Dr. Frankenstein for a few years. Do we need superstar players? Well let’s go out and get them. Sacramento doesn’t have enough hotel rooms for an All-Star Game? Let me build them. Wait, there’s no cup holders in the upper deck? Lets stretch this stadium design a bit wider, or invent a new cupholder or what the hell ever else his worst impulses drive him to do. The Golden 1 Center is great, DOCO is decent, but have you seen the plans that Ballmer has for the Clippers? Imagine Vivek dropping that money on Sacramento. Money can’t buy happiness, is a false adage. It can buy you happiness, it can buy you the services of the greatest general managers and coaches and players on Earth, it can buy you championships and it can certainly keep your fans entertained while they wait for those other things to arrive.
Rich: This is a phenomenal question, and there are so many good answers. For me, I would give this team the gift of self-awareness. Star players will come and go. Good decisions and bad decisions will be made. But the persistent inability to acknowledge what other teams understand is the true killer. You don’t go 14 years without the playoffs because you make mistakes. You go 14 years without the playoffs because you don’t even understand what mistakes you are making.
From HongKongKingsFan:
Coach Walton said he will push the pace in those 8 games,
and we knew the Kings plays better if they push the pace. How would that strategy affect the playing time for the players, e.g. Yogi can play really fast, while CoJo don’t, and Alex Len cannot run fast, but maybe Parker can run faster.
Tim: Switching to a young, athletic team would be the easiest way to get up and down the floor, although a fast-paced team doesn’t necessarily need every single player in a lineup to be lighting fast. Guards and wings are probably the biggest influence in that arena, so getting Bogdan Bogdanovic some minutes at point guard, playing DaQuan Jeffries over Jabari Parker or Corey Brewer, and making sure Kyle Guy gets a few spot minutes would certainly help the cause.
Will: Focusing on the fast break and pushing the pace really doesn’t mean that all five players have to be lightning quick. Len could operate in a fast paced lineup if he had three guards and Harrison Barnes along side him. Throwing in our G-League guys and giving them the green light would certainly speed things up as well, though I suspect that really won’t happen once the true games start.
Rich: I think the team adds pace by going young. I wouldn’t put it past them to go really, really young. Recently I wrote an article about the three rookies getting more playing time than anyone could have expected, and I believe that. DaQuan Jeffries, Justin James, and Kyle Guy should all get legitimate opportunities at one point or another. I just think that’s the nature of an unstable situation like the bubble.
From TyrekeFan1:
How can the Kings make up De’Aaron Fox’s production if he misses a couple of games with this ankle injury?
Tim: The short answer is that they can’t. Originally, I would’ve answered with a need for Marvin Bagley to do his scoring-thing off the bench, but with his absence, the Kings will be extremely reliant on Bogdan Bogdanovic and Buddy Hield to put up some major numbers: especially Hield.
Will: Quite simply, they cannot. If Fox misses a few games, Corey Joseph and Yogi Ferrell would need to turn in career best numbers in order to make the came level impact as Fox does on the court and I just don’t see a world where that happens. Fox is the engine that runs this team, without it, you might as well turn off the TV and wait for August 20th and the NBA Draft.
Rich: The easy answer is that they can not. The more contrived, less accurate answer would be to rely on point-Bogi. While I value Cory Joseph in his backup role, I don’t think his style can ever provide anything similar to what Fox does. A little Bogdanovic magic might be able to get there for a game or two.
From MichaelMack:
Is there an all-star-ish level of player that you think we can dangle multiple assets for, or a more established player than we were talking about last week? Or even making a huge offer of multiple draft picks and a couple of our better players?
Tim: Marvin Bagley’s injury kind of ended that possibility for me. Sure, the Kings have first round picks to offer another team, but outside of that, most organizations that are looking to trade high-profile players for assets in a rebuild, and Sacramento doesn’t possess a single attractive, young player on their roster outside of De’Aaron Fox. Sure, they could do something like send Buddy Hield to Philadelphia for Al Horford and a decent player, but the roster feels a little bit stuck right now, unless the Kings actually try to get younger, which feels unlikely given this front office’s track record.
Will: The only All-Star level players that can be had are three that we probably don’t want. We could probably dangle enough assets for Kemba Walker, but he doesn’t fit our timeline and wouldn’t move the needle for us enough to be worth draining the cupboard for. Same goes for Chris Paul, plus he’s an asshole and even older than Kemba. The most intriguing and attainable of the All-Star level players that could maybe, just possibly be had would be Rudy Gobert. The guy is a perennial DPOY candidate and less than six months older than Buddy Hield, so he fits the timeline roughly. That being said, he admits to being a bit of a jerk to his star counterparts and has been known to rub teammates the wrong way if he isn’t getting the touches he deserves. His defense would immediately transform the team and allow De’Aaron Fox to play more loose in the passing lanes, but again there would be great concerns on whether or not he’d move the needle enough to be worth the assets it would take to get him.
Rich: I don’t have anyone in particular in mind, but the general concept of consolidating assets is growing on me. The Kings are strangely deep (when healthy) but in a low-functioning way. I’d rather get risky with the last few spots in the rotation in order to get another solid option. There is such limited space for a young player to grow in this group. Say the Kings draft a guard, will they get any minutes? What about a big man? Can they get priority over Holmes, Bagley, Bjelica, and the small-ball Barnes minutes? Even if the Kings miraculously decided to draft a small forward, can you trust the Kings not to bog them down with another Ariza type signing or Bazemore type trade? Go ahead and make some moves. I’m ready.
From Kosta:
If you were stuck inside a bubble like the one at Disney World, how would you spend your days? What would you do with your free time?
Tim: I would play a lot of basketball, watch a lot of basketball, read many, many books, smoke a bunch of meat (and no, that’s not a euphemism for something else – I really like smoking meat), and play Warzone for about 15 hours per day.
Will: Back in college when I was living in the dorms and didn’t have a car on campus, if I wasn’t in class or studying, I was pretty much running fives on any court I could find, or refining my form on whatever hoop the game-in-progress wasn’t using. Five nights a week I was on the hardwood for 3 hours, getting in reps. I’d venture to guess my NBA bubble would be somewhat similar. I play roughly 1.5 video games regularly. I’m pretty much tone deaf, so I wouldn’t be making music. I’m a terrible fisherman, though I try a few times a month. I’d probably be Jimmy Butler, dribbling my basketball in my room at 4 am, trying to fall asleep, bored as hell. There’s only so many times in a year you can watch Letterkenny and consuming too much Cormac McCarthy would end up with my teammates scared of me every time I opened my trap.
Rich: Pretty much exactly how I do now. Watch sports, write about sports, talk about sports. Play the occasional video game. Watch Netflix. I don’t get out much. Please help me.
Redirecting the focus of the “Is Bagley a bust” question leads to a simpler answer and analysis, we should ask it this way: Is Vlade the GM a bust?
Bagley didn’t pick himself. The focus should be on the Kings FO and (hopefully) we can all agree at this point that the Vlade-based FO is a complete and total BUST!
Redirecting is a nice word, but let’s not misdirect ourselves. It is already clear that the pick was a mistake, whether you call it a bust, mistake or still TBD. he may become a useful player. He may even end up on an all star game or two (hell, even I did!). But a lot has to happen for him to become a top 5 player in his draft class.
Now we can try to move that discussion from the player Marvin Bagley III, but who are we kidding?
I also don’t get it. Nobody had any qualms to rip hard into WCS, BMac or Stauslas when they were as young or barely older than Marvin? So why the sensitivity now?
I am not saying that to protect Marvin. It’s just that my bigger concern is that the folks that made that stupid decision are still in charge!
Fox’s time here is tick, tick, ticking away and the focus should be on the incompetents at the top!
I did not mean to suggest that we can’t analyze Bagley. It’s just that, until he can even do anything on the court that analysis is pretty limited. The Vlade-based FO, on the other hand, we have some data to work with there! 😉
I believe in Marvin’s talent, personally. I could see him making (at least) several All Star games.
But not unless he gets healthy and he shores quite a few things up along the way. I don’t trust the organization will be much help in getting him there, either.
I too think he has talent but history is not on his side. In all seriousness, how many high profile lottery picks have had the injury problems and glaring weaknesses to their games over their first two seasons have gone on to be “stars” in the league? I can’t think of any.
Before folks say Embiid, I think it is fair to say he didn’t play at all his first two seasons but came out of the gates as a pretty solid player. After Embiid’s first 75 games, he was clearly an all-star. Bagley is nowhere near that.
And, of course, we’re talking about players with different skillsets. If Bagley was a plus defender like Embiid, or even projected to be one, this would be a very different question.
Defense, good assist rate for a big, floor spreading capabilities. You know, insignificant things like production that really helps the team!
I think Bagley can likely spread the floor as well as Embiid (aka not especially well), but yeah…
Speaking of bigs spreading the floor, I literally hooted and hollered when I saw Giles scurrying to the corner to take that short 3. I’m admittedly much too willing to extrapolate based on one play in one meaningless scrimmage game.
BUT! Imagine those side PnR and ball screens with Hield on the wing if they’re both a threat to drive, pass and shoot?
As I’ve said before, I think Giles has a 3 pt shot. He just has to use it. His mechanics are clean, smooth and repeatable. He shoots a good percentage from mid-range (as I’ve pointed out, he’s 2nd in the NBA for mid-range FG% among bigs that shoot more than 1 a game.). He’s 8-17 on 3-pointers as a professional (8-11 in G-league, 0-6 in NBA).
Part of his development in general includes a need to look for his shot more. Basically, shoot more, foul less.
Embiid shot 37% his rookie year on over 3 attempts per game. That percentage fell for a couple of years (31 and 30%) but it’s back up to 35% this season on about 4 shots per game.
So far (super limited sample size approved), Bagley only takes about 1.5 threes per game at a sub 30% clip overall (better his rookie year: about 31% on 1.5 per).
So, I’d be pretty happy if Bagley becomes a 35% 3pt shooter on around 4 shots per game!
I wouldn’t be surprised if he did. He has decent form and good touch. Just being respectable would give him more opportunities to attack close-outs.
I really don’t see it. He needs to improve in so many areas to become an impact player. His fundamentals, BBIQ, tunnel vision, defensive awareness are severely lacking, and these are few of the hardest things to improve on.
pair that with an apparent inflated view of himself and a father who feeds into it, I am far from optimistic.
Buddy says, “shhhhhhh.”
My concern is the same as it’s been for a while: that even if he achieves individual success in the NBA (and if he stays healthy, he should do that), his individual success translates into limited team success at best.
Yeah, that is what I meant with impact player.
Agreed, I don’t see him anchoring a team as it’s cornerstone. He may make a solid 2nd banana or even a great 3rd banana, but that’s about it.
To put it another way, if he is a high usage 20 and 10 player with a few all-star appearances, his team will not be in the playoffs. Now, if he becomes a low usage and effective 15 and 8 player and makes those around him better, he may not be an all-star, but could be a valuable piece to a contender.
Although not the perfect comp, I see the career arc of Chris Bosh in this scenario. Bosh was the man in Toronto, but only made 2 first round playoff appearances in 7 seasons. He didn’t find his groove and role as third fiddle until he moved to Miami, to the tune of 2 NBA titles.
Yeah, he just doesn’t (as of yet) do any of the things that make the game easier on his teammates.
This is where I disagree with you (and Rory): I don’t mind Giles shooting corner 3’s but I do mind him shooting top of the arc 3’s.
I would prefer he learn how to score in the block, in the lane, and just in general know what shots he should be taking.
Shoot more, foul less. Perfect synopsis of Harry at this point.
That was why the shot attempts from the corner were so interesting to me. The Giles top of the key hand offs are always a bit wonky. Adding a pick and pop from that area would be cool, but the wing action was what intrigued me. I think I perked up because it happened in the same area as the buddy/Giles 2-man stuff they also used. You can see an offense based on Fox operating on one side of the court with two shooters and those two on the other side. It’s got that pick your poison vibe you’re looking for on offense.
I certainly agree, Bratz, that this offense has the potential of a pick your poison down the line a bit.
And, to be fair, I was encouraged that it was a Buddy-Harry 2 man game that yielded that corner 3. Buddy’s playmaking has been widely criticized, but that’s an area he’s improved at. And has to improve at, for that matter. With the kind of gravity that Buddy does create, it’s important. It also makes having CoJo off the bench less of a big deal because you have Harry and Buddy potentially carrying the offense.
I’m just never going to be intrigued by Harry shooting 3’s at the top of the key unless it’s wide open penetration from a G essentially and a kick out off that.
(orange + blue badge commenters are the 3&D wings of TKH)
(I will use this as a reminder that I think commenter advanced stats would be a funny addition to the site)
Imagine a bball reference style page with raw/advanced stats? Tell me that wouldn’t be a uniquely funny thing. Here’s what I’ve come up with:
Up/Down Vote Ratio
Upvotes per comment
Purple Comment %
Comments per Article
Characters per Comment
Upvotes given per comment made (or per article)
I agree with you, Rik. It’s weird that people like WCS, BMac, Stauslas (Stauslas?? Man, what a dis, Rik! You purposely spelled his name wrong!) were trashed but some people who stick up for Marvin didn’t do the same defending for them.
Sorry: Saucekas.
https://art19.com/shows/kings-insider-podcast
Speaking of, the local media is such a joke. For those who don’t want to listen (25-35 minute mark roughly), Ham goes on about the “bullying” of Marvin Bagley and threatens to “put his foot down” on Twitter and block anyone who DARES say that Marvin Bagley is injury prone and that we should have picked Luka Doncic.
Because this is bizarro reality where he clearly ISN’T injury prone and that other guy? That other guy doesn’t exist, we’re not supposed to talk about him.
Yeah, George, Ham, Jones all seem to have created this collective narrative that there exists an army of folks out there with personal animus towards Bagley.
Most of what I have seen has been fair analysis. Of course on twitter there are always a handful of trollish extremists, but they are easily ignored and exist on every issue, sportsball or otherwise. Elevating their status to some kind of legitimate movement that requires a response is super straw-manish and weak journalism.
He should join the POTUS media team.
I like this, 1951.
My criticisms are meant to be towards the front office. I mean there are some things I’m not too happy about with Bagley (like how he doesn’t seem to be working on /addressing his weaknesses), but if Vlade didn’t pick Marvin we wouldn’t be worrying about this.
It all starts at the top. The reason this franchise is where it is right now is the fault of leadership.
Here’s my issue with Bagley: I really don’t know how much real progress he’s made this season given his injuries. It’s tough for me to believe he CAN’T improve based on this season, but the first issue to tackle is getting on the court. The other stuff will work itself out as it does (as in it improves, it doesn’t, or some things improve and others do not).
I agree with you. I really hope he gets 1800-2000 minutes next season and get his career going. I think he can be a very good player.
Blaming Vlade and then saying “It all starts at the top”….?
Vivek sits atop this kingdom, and he can have all the blame as far as I’m concerned. The only difference between him and the tightwad version of the Maloofs is the relocation drama. Meddling, handsy owners rarely make good personnel decisions.
Marvin may be a total bust at this point, and if it costs Vlade his job maybe it should. But if anyone thinks a new GM is going to make things better they probably haven’t been paying attention.
A competent GM certainly isn’t a silver bullet, but I think it would absolutely make things better. Now, you could argue that Vivek wouldn’t necessarily replace him with a great choice, but we’re talking about a GM who came in with zero experience and hasn’t shown anything to suggest savantism.
The if you could change one thing question used to be difficult, not anymore.
I can’t help but think we already know how this turns out.
I mean, it’s right there: “change!”
is it just me, or are the plays drawn on that court moving away from the basket?
I thought it was two penises attacking each other with fleas.
Inside balloons.
Yeah! Skin Deep! Hahaha
Nothing grows in the shade.
Marty, you are not to be messed with! This is a brutal and amazing image!
This image is everything. Unfortunately for Bagley, this will always be an issue for him throughout his career.
LOL! I love how his hat gets stuck! 🙂
I am glad you liked it but that stickiness is just the result of my hack-a-gif subpar editing skillz
I think it’s great!
While I can appreciate Buddy looking out for his younger teammate, I think his criticism might be a bit misdirected. I don’t think there is anything wrong with sports media, or any media for that matter, writing an accurate and balanced critique of a player / person. The problem comes when consumers of that media read the nuanced critique, synthesize it to “lol, fuck you Bagley, you suck” and post that to his Twitter page.
I’d agree with Buddy that that type of criticism really doesn’t do anyone any good, but I don’t think asking the media to stop reporting on the issues is a viable option. Nor, unfortunately, do I think telling trolls to stop being trolls will pan out either. If I were a professional athlete / any public person dealing with this type of scrutiny, and that criticism was really getting to me, I would be inclined to get off social media entirely. You’ve got a team of people that can handle your Twitter page for publicity and marketing, why bother seeing what LeBumSucks9049 has to say about how soft you are.
Thanks for taking my question in addition to the others, fellas!
Will, I would HATE to be in the room below you!
But what if you had him in the room with a Lady Bird DVD?
The sounds from my room would immediately cease at just the THREAT of this
Will would need a new DVD/Blu-Ray in a couple days. It would be best to order several given the likelihood of how quickly he’ll burn through a disc.
In regards to MichaelMack’s question of is there an all-star(ish) player out there that that King could package for, I think Beal could be that target.
I’m not sure the Wiz can afford to keep him and Wall togethere going forward, and I don’t think there is any way for them to move Wall and his deal.
Could a package of Buddy, Bagley, and #12 get it done? The Wiz would need to throw in cap filler like Ish Smith to make numbers work, but that would be my hope.
If they’re moving Beal, I have to imagine they’re going for a full re-build. As such, you’re probably talking about multiple future 1sts. I doubt Hield already in his peak and on a market rate deal, Bagley off an injury-plagued season and having burnt two years of team-control, and a late-lottery pick in a bad draft get it done. But really, I don’t see any real impetus to move Beal. They’re stuck with Wall so they may as well just build the best team they can until as long as his contract is on the books. That almost certainly includes keeping Beal.
Sidenote: Holy crap is that Wall contract terrible.
Hmm. Go on …
Yeah, Wall’s deal might be the worst in the league at this point.
I only thought they might like Buddy’s deal be he is cheaper than Beal and can perform at a high level that might still make them relevant in the East. The gamble for them would definitely be Bagley. It would depend of if they think he has value or not.
In regards to multiple 1sts being offered, I could easily be talked into moving the #12 PLUS a protected future first for Beal. Throw in some 2nds while we are at it.
My feeling is the Kings are treading water for the next decade if they keep the roster as is and nothing makes me feel they will improve through the draft. Making a high profile trade to land a sure fire star (much like the Webber trade) may be the only way for the Kings to become relevant again. If it takes an overpay of future assets, it might be worth it.
Oh, I agree. I think they’re going to have to do something big to push this team from 8th seed contender to playoff regular/occasional actual contender.
Since I don’t think they’re actually going to do what they really need to (clean house in the FO, coaching staff, etc. and hand the keys completely to the new GM), I agree they should be looking at big trades. Unfortunately, filling up the Cap sheet with high $ role players on multi-year deals takes away one potential asset in acquiring them. But what the heck, package some Kings picks for one or two big trades and move forward.
I love the idea of bringing in Chris Paul simply as an a-hole who would kill the guys on our team for making the mistakes they make nightly. The Kings don’t have that type of leader right now.
Didn’t they already try that with Rajon Rondo?
Yeah, like Rondo except, you know, really really good. And an “uncompromising-high-expectations” style asshole rather than a “brash-dickhead” style asshole.
Draymond Green could be that a-hole
Your opinion of Chris Paul and my opinion of him are not at all the same.
Yeah, I get that a lot of people don’t like his gamesmanship and it sounds like he’s a tough guy to play with. He’s very much the type you love on your own team and hate otherwise. But the fact remains he’s one of the absolutely best PGs ever to play the game, has elevated every team he’s played for (his first two seasons are the only times he’s missed the playoffs), and played/plays at an extremely high level at both ends of the floor.
I would like to suggest to Will that if he thinks he is a terrible fisherman then he is doing it wrong. His mistake is assuming that catching fish has anything to do with fishing. When done properly actually catching fish has very little to do with the activity of fishing.
Tim- Thanks for the reminder why Vlade sucks so much as a GM with his horrible decisions and nepotism. I need a reminder every once is awhile.
One slight disagreement I have with the article is the market value of Bagley being similar to Fultz. I think the issue with Fultz was that people wondered if he was even going to be able to physically shoot a basketball and/or if he was even mentally tough enough to be a professional basketball player (correct me if I’m wrong).
And say what you will about Bagley, but he did earn 2nd team All-rookie among a pretty strong class, and his injuries I think many will still view as a bit fluky. There is always the “Kangz” factor as well, as some teams may think some of Bags’ struggles and inability to stay healthy may be tied to organizational and training staff incompetence.
I think Bags still has trade value, although it has obviously taken a huge hit this year. I think the right situation could bring back a young rotational player who either is unhappy or a poor fit. Maybe like a Markkanen or even Bamba.
Just my opinion.
Markkanen would be cool and I think has a much safer floor as a player. Ending up with Bamba would be funny after he slid so much.
The thing is Vlade and co. would never trade Bagley right now. Because that would be admitting defeat. Admitting a mistake. Which they are obviously hellbent on avoiding. This is one of the more frustrating parts of the administration, and is why I agreed with Tim’s response to the “change one thing” question.
Somebody brought up the Bulls in another conversation and I started thinking about a deal that looks something like:
Hield
Bagley
SAC 2020 1st (top 4 protected)
For
LaVine
Markkanen
Satoransky
CHI 2021 1st (top 10-ish protected with diminishing protection in following years)
Now, I’m no fan or LaVine but, he’s a better passer/playmaker and if you could convince him to embrace the secondary playmaker role more, he would be a better shooter and excellent cutter. And his contract is shorter than Hield’s. Defensively, I think Hield/Bagley for LaVine/Markannen is a wash. Chicago gets the chance to either use 7 & 12 to move up in the draft or take two shots in a draft heavy on combo guards with primary playmaking potential (for example, taking Hayes and Halliburton).
Another approach that I might like more is something build around Barnes+Bagley+SAC2020 1st for OPJ+Markkanen+CHI 2021 1st.
Hmm maybe Hield+Bagley+Cojo for Lavine and OPJ? That sounds lopsided in our favor, but the salaries work. We could add our #12 to sweeten the deal. I’d even throw in another protected 1st to see this lineup out there:
PG- Fox, Lavine, Yogi, Bogi
SG- Lavine, Bogi, Baze, Jeffries
SF- OPJ, Baze, Barnes, James
PF- Barnes, Bjelly, OPJ
C- Holmes, Len, Giles
I mean, I think that’s better than where we are now, both in terms of roster construction and future planning (I can especially see the cap space freed up after Porter’s contract expires in 2021 being very useful. Mostly to take on salary in a trade as other teams are trying to create space to sign the big name FAs in that class). I think LaVine is slightly more valuable than Buddy, but not much. I think OPJ is probably a neutral asset or perhaps slightly negative. I would love to get out from under Barnes deal and I can see where the Bulls might value his dependability, especially now. I really like OPJ,
Really, I would throw it all together. Let’s get crazy:
Heild + Bagley + Barnes + 2020 1st (top 4 protected) + Random 2nd
for
LaVine + Markkanen + OPJ + Sato + 2021 (lottery protected)
Fox/LaVine/Bogdan/Sato/Joseph
OPJ/Markannen/Bjelica/Holmes/Giles (hopefully)
Then fill in the gaps.
Haha we are definitely getting crazy here. But yeah, that one works too.
I just really like Barnes’ dependability, and OPJ has had some injuries. That’s why I was thinking it would be nice to have the versatility of Barnes and Porter. Especially if trading Hield, who has been very dependable in terms of ability to stay on the court. Lavine has injury history as well, so that lineup you propose scares me a little.
Yeah, Barnes and Hield are extremely dependable. It’s probably Barnes’ best quality. I just don’t think Barnes is worth his contract and I would love to get out from under it. Porter is absolutely a big injury risk. But if healthy his the better player his contract is expiring just at the right time IMO. I would probably make a follow up deal to try to shore up that position for 2021 in case he gets hurt again.
Maybe just sign a Nwaba or Jeffries type as insurance.
Definitely. As well as someone like Harkless/Juancho and/or probably draft someone like Bey, Hughes, Reed, Smith, Queen or N’Doye in the second round.
So that settles it; somebody let Vlade know 😉
We know he’s interested in both Lavine and Porter, since he offered them big contracts in the past. And maybe someone can change the bios for Markkanen and Sato to say that they were born in Serbia. …I think then Vlade might actually do it.
It’s definitely an interesting comparison. I would certainly take Fultz over Bagley right now, but at the time on the trade Fultz’s health looked even sketchier. So I can see somebody being more comfortable with the rationale for Bagley’s struggles than Fultz’s.
It’s a good point. And Bagley was actually first team all-rookie, which helps your point.
This season, where Bagley was supposed to prove he had a well-rounded game, that he wasn’t just a glorified garbage man putting up empty stats against weak competition off the bench, has been a complete write-off as he failed to prove anything or even stay on the court.
But that is still a little far from his career being a write-off. There is still plenty of potential that a rebuilding team might want to trade for. Though I don’t think anyone would give up a high lottery pick right now
Totally agree with you Airmax. I’m not sure it’s the right move, but I could see Bagley getting moved in the offseason. The Doncic shadow weighs heavy here, and the franchise might decide he could get a fresh start elsewhere.
I could see it happening too. Especially with little red flags like the family beef with Fox (which I’m still unclear what exactly happened), and uncertainty positionally where he fits (with Barnes spending significant time at the 4)…
If Vlade were to move Bagley this summer for a lateral player like a Markkanaen or Bamba and not a significantly better package for a star, it’s an admitted mistake by Vlade and Vivek would undoubtedly have to fire him. That is why Vlade won’t trade Bagley for dimes on the dollar, and also why Vivek won’t let him. There would be too much egg on the face of the franchise. I think Bagley only gets packaged for a legitimate star. The Kings have made their bed with Bagley.
I think Bagley’s ceiling is Derrick Favors 2.0, When Favors was in his prime with Utah, maybe a little better. Unless, Bagley starts developing an outside shot. His Defense is terrible. Most of his shots are put backs, dunks, etc. As a 5, he will struggle against bigger and muscular centers. I don’t see star quality. A solid player. 16-10/17-9 type of player. I like him. But, I don’t see a franchise changing talent by any stretch. I just look at the games Bagley started as a King. The Kings did not win a single game and he’s a net negative on the floor.
Do you think Grant Napear is at home watching Luka dominate this scrimmage, all the while muttering to himself about how overrated he is and why are the Mavericks only a 7-seed if he’s so great?
Who is that?
Some Mavs player. European. Must be soft.
Oh, I know who Luka is. I just don’t recognize the first name that was written!
All Names Matter!
My hope is he feels guilty for being the soulless shill he was the last 15 years. My guess is is he’s whipping up that lawsuit against the Kings, Vivek, and the Kings herald.
Moderators, the real names instead of the screen names are visible again.
Please fix it.
Thanks.
Hey Rik,
This was related to a plugin update for our comment section but we have gone ahead and fixed it, thanks for pointing it out.
Aykis16 unplugged!
Thanks again.
Don’t worry Dutchman. I already forgot your name, and I saw it a few times.
I’m on the stablist of a few others…
Stablist? Who has a stablist without my permission. TELL ME NOW!!!!
STABLIST’S ARE MY DOMAIN, GODDAMMIT.
Kent Tekulve.
He was no Greg Minton, but fun reference.
He was a Pirate stuck in Pittsburgh. I kinda don’t blame him….
So, hydroxychloroquine did the trick?
I thought it was alien DNA!
Greg’s sex with demons causes names to appear.
That was my first marriage. He’s welcome to her.
Now it’s visible if you edit a comment…
Can’t decide if it should be plugged in or not!
I am absolutely for the Kings making a big move, I would be for trading Bagley/Buddy/’20 1st rd pick/and 1 more conditional pick for Beal, mentioned above. Aside from that, what other stars even look to be available? I don’t see Beal getting moved either unfortunately.
So what are the alternatives?
Get a guy that isn’t quite on that level; i.e. CJ McCollum, Tobias Harris, types. Then consider the financial situation right now, would this front office go for a huge contract right now? I don’t think so.
Aside from that you would have to look for a player who hasn’t broken out as a star yet. MPJ, OG Anunoby, John Collins, Lauri Markkanen.
Thanks for the answers. I particularly liked the idea of Billionaire Vivek, that would solve nearly all of our issues.
I was listening to the Lowe Post, and he had Kevin Pelton on. Lowe was discussing how good LaQuan has looked, and Pelton said he was 23rd in his scrimmage VORP rankings. Its a small sample size of essentially meaningless games, but at least it validates the eye test to a certain extent.
Also, I was perusing the scrimmage stats, and the Kings were ranked dead last in +/- in the first half of games (-41). That’s a bit disconcerting considering most teams really only tried in the first half of games. Overall, there was some promising stuff though:
I don’t want to over analyze this stuff, but you can kinda see a path to victory if these trends continue. If you can score efficiently without turning the ball over and not give up too many second chance points, then you’ll be in a lot of ballgames. They just have to fix their 3 point defense. They gave up by far the most 3PA in the scrimmages. Opponents shot ~47 threes per game against the Kings. That’s basically 5 more attempts per game than the team with the second most opponent 3PAs.
How amazing would it be if the Kings again somehow found a diamond in the rough with Jeffries, much like IT. It could be a game changer for the franchise. If he can become a significant role player, the Kings could have him locked up on the cheap for the foreseeable future.
There are diamonds every year like Kendrick Nunn, Duncan Robinson (Goddamn,Miami has some good scouting and development), and Devonte’ Graham. Could Jeffries be one of those kind of players? In watching him I couldn’t help but think of the career Wes Mathews has had. I know it is way early and we’ve only seen 3 scrimmages, but I’m excited for him.
I really like the Lowe Post podcast, and that might have been the most positive I’ve ever heard him about the Kings
Why does Bagley get so many chances and excuses while Thomas Robinson, an arguably more likable player was dealt his first year? What’s the difference?
Good question.
Money. Robinson was dealt to keep the lights on at Arco…or Power Balance…or maybe Sleep Train.
I’m guessing that Robinson was that bad alas
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