Let’s take a minute to talk about Tyrese Haliburton.
Tyrese Haliburton assists in 2020-21: 5.3
Tyrese Haliburton assists in 2021-22: 6.9
Tyrese Haliburton assists last 10 games: 10.3
Tyrese Haliburton points in 2020-21: 13.0
Tyrese Haliburton points in 2021-22: 13.5
Tyrese Haliburton points last 10 games: 18.2
Over the last 10 games, Haliburton has been playing on an entirely new level. His scoring and distribution are way up in ways that look like they could be very sustainable. Haliburton’s play is getting lots of attention right now, and for good reason.
Tyrese Haliburton should be nominated for West Player of the Week (Ja Morant will almost certainly win it, but the league will announce a few other worthy candidates today).
Record: 3-1
PPG: 15.5 (51% FG, 11/19 3PT!)
APG: 10.5 (T-1st with CP3)
RBG: 5.5 pic.twitter.com/1WKPq4jl47— Alex Kramers (@alexkramers) January 3, 2022
It’s taken only 7 games for Haliburton to climb from 19th to 12th overall with 6.9 assists per game
He’s averaged 10.4 assists per game during the 7 game stretch@ESPN1320 @DLoAndKC https://t.co/7ZmaLaNxk7
— Will Z. Stats (@will_zimmerle) January 3, 2022
And Tyrese is being noticed for things beyond just points and assists:
According to PBPStats, Tyrese Haliburton (Sacramento Kings) leads the NBA in “bad pass steals” and is second in the league in blocked 3-pointers. Basically this dude is playing passing lanes 𝘢𝘯𝘥 blocking 3s, which is nuts.
— Justin Russo (@FlyByKnite) January 3, 2022
Crazier still, there’s an argument to be made that Haliburton is capable of even more than what he’s currently doing.
I don’t have any grand point to this point beyond a simple acknowledgement that, wow, Tyrese Haliburton has been playing really well. He’s fun to watch, and he’s producing. In a stretch of games where even the wins aren’t terribly exciting given the larger context, I really enjoy watching Tyrese Haliburton play basketball.
I’ve enjoyed his game from the first day he played a game. High BBIQ, solid leadership, high effort, great vision, makes teammates better, … and the list goes on. I really don’t see a ceiling on his game. I’m on the “build around Tyrese” train.
The way he’s starting to read/react to PnR’s and with how decisive he’s getting, he’s becoming a defensive nightmare. He’ll be even harder to stop once he looks for his shot a little more.
It’s time.
Okay Rese, here is your new Kangz car:
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Kings driving a Family Truckster in a Tesla world.
If a big deal is going to happen, Hali or Fox will likely be gone. The thing I have seen from Fox, more than anyone else on this team, is the ability to takeover the game in the 4th. Granted, he does not do it as much as any of us would like, but he has shown the ability more than Hali at this point.
I see your point, but I stand firm that if you are counting on either Hali or Fox to take over ballgames and get you the win, you aren’t going to get a lot of wins. Neither is the #1 option on a good team. Where I give Hali the edge is he makes those around him a hell of a lot better than Fox does. He’s made a bunch of average bigs on the Kings look pretty good in the pick and roll.
Fox has shown one thing consistently: inconsistency. Inconsistent effort, inconsistent performance, inconsistent shooting, etc.
Yes, Fox will give you spectacular games. That’s great, except when he is part of the problem for the next three games wherein the Kings aren’t even competitive.
I have wanted Fox to be part of the solution for a long time now. I am just not holding my breath and have stopped doing that for a while now with him. If Fox is the asset that gets us back something to improve the team, then I do it without a pause. In fact, I would be actively seeking that out.
Given that he did make a couple of big leaps in his game play over the years, I hoped that he could keep growing in to an all star caliber player. Yeah. Not quite there yet. And for that matter, I think we’ve seen peak Fox. I also would be on the phone about his availability.
He hasn’t really made big leaps. This year so far aside, he’s pretty much had your standard non-star progressive growth curve. Now, it certainly isn’t anywhere near too late to make a leap, but so far he’s had your standard gradual improvement. Again, this season so far omitted.
I’d go a step further and add that his outside shooting regression is significant and very troubling.
Agree with most everything here, but I do think we need to take a step back in our evaluation of Fox – which has often felt reactionary. He’s still really young and talented, and players don’t have linear progressions in performance over time. Go through any NBA player’s stats and you will see good years and off years. With Covid-19, a roster not built to optimize his talents, and a generally abysmal coaching staff/FO around him, I think Fox’s tough year seems only natural in many ways. The three point shooting and lack of defense is deeply concerning, but we’ve seen for 3 years what Fox is capable of, though many have allowed recency bias to wipe away our memories.
I don’t believe he’s meant to play next to another guy like Hali as an off-ball threat. He’s a ball-dominant, attacking guard who needs shooters and defenders around him to cover up his shortcomings and a full-court offense to exploit with pace. That is not this team. I’m not against trading Fox, but I think his performance and value needs to be contextualized before we ship off a 23 year old rising star on team bereft of talent in exchange for peanuts. Boston, Philly, Toronto, or New Orleans would all probably still be really happy to have him since he could run the floor in a system that’s more conducive to his skillset. If that’s the case, I want to see them pay properly for the player they’d like to acquire (though I know winning trades is not the Kangz way).
Too bad the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd quarters matter just as much as the 4th.
To be fair, every Kings player is turning heads. Hali just happens to be one of the few that has fans turning heads towards the court.
Fans puking like Exorcist too!
Rese is by far the best player on the Kings (don’t at me with Fox, the stats aren’t even close in terms of overall effectiveness).
Players with a higher usage rate than Rese on the Kings this season (eliminating folks with less than 15 games played):
De’Aaron Fox
Marvin Bagley
Buddy Hield
Terence Davis
Harrison Barnes
Tristan Thompson
Davion Mitchell
Chimezie Metu
(Richaun is arguable your second most effective player and his usage rate is even lower than Rese’s!)
My guess is that if every player on the roster was a UFA, Fox would command the largest contract in rate and term. So stats this and usage that, but I think the folks that determine who gets paid what in the NBA would see Fox as the best talent on this roster…which is why I think the Kings should shop him for a legit wing, and then move forward with said wing and a Hali / Mitchell backcourt.
I have my doubts that this would be true by the end of this season.
K, but on 1/4/22?
I am not sure. Probably still Fox today, but my point is that gap is closing quickly.
If Fox is magically made a FA today, how many other teams even give him his current deal?
I think that Fox would land a multi-year, upper echelon deal, while Hali would receive more of a Bogi deal.
Could it be different by the end of the season? Sure. On the other hand, if we see more of the Fox that played against the Heat, there will be more distance between Fox and Hali, so it becomes a wait and see as it pertains to the end of the season.
Yup. There is always that tantalizing “if” with Fox. He has always given fans and our GMs those games or stretches of a few games!
The same can be said of Hali, to a lesser degree. Granted, Hali has been given less of a chance. But sustainability has not yet become his calling card.
Sure, but let’s be fair and compare apples to apples. Fox is a fifth year veteran, so a lot of this is looking at where Rese is now and projecting what we think that means.
Stats from Fox’s year 1/2 seasons versus Rese:
Points: 14.6 v. 13.2
Dimes: 5.9 v. 5.9
TRB: 3.3 v. 3.4
Stl: 1.3 v. 1.5
blk: 0.4 v. 0.6
TOV: 2.6 v. 1.8
FG: .439 v. .469
3pt: .345 v. .416
FT: .725 v. .832
TS: .517 v. .581
I am confident that GMs would make deals based also on where they project the players to be.
One interesting note, is that Fox’s 3pt% wasn’t terrible after his first two seasons. His regression there has been pretty substantial.
As I said, Hali has had less of a chance. But part of Fox’s “regression” has come with higher volume, which impacts virtually every player from Kevin Martin to Buddy Hield. And one could safely assume that the same thing would happen to Hali.
Rese > Steph! 😉
All joking aside: Fox’s substantial regression in 3 pt efficiency is too great to be explained solely by an increase in volume. Sure, we see that with other players but not like this.
For example, Fox is taking 1.6 FEWER threes per game this year compared to last year and his % actually dropped from just under 32% to under 25%! Further, his % went up from a bad 29% in year three to a better, but still bad, 32% in year four despite taking 1.9 MORE threes per game.
It’s not volume driven. It’s just bad.
Sample size is the only reason I’d agree with your point on Fox. Interestingly, while Fox would probably get a bigger contract, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Hali were a more attractive trade asset due to production, value, upside and versatility. IMO he’s a much easier piece to build around/integrate.
Agreed 100% that Hali would be more attractive to a greater number of teams, especially given his contract. I don’t know that he returns a better yield of assets than Fox – that would be closer. But I stand by my assertion that Fox commands the larger contract if both were UFAs today.
Or seasons, like, say, the last one.
Of course, he was 5-12 on the day. 0-4 from 3. A career day from the FT line salvaged his game. I’m not sure NBA decision makers would be all that impressed with that game specifically.
It can’t be ignored that Haliburton passes up a lot of shots, and given his skills, he ought to be taking a chunk of them. It’s clear that he’s at his best when he plays aggressively, and if we’re going to talk about inconsistency, Ty’s mindset has got to be that he’s going to take shots that he feels he can make, unless a teammate is looking at a sure thing.
It’s not a bad thing that he isn’t a selfish player, but if we’re going to talk about moving on from Fox, the team still needs a player that can get a bucket when one absolutely needs to be had. Haliburton is going to have a hell of a career, but I don’t know if, given his relatively average athleticism, he’ll be able to be that guy.
If Ty’s usage is low, it isn’t for lack of opportunities. He’s got to consistently assert himself when the Kings have the ball. I’m confident that he can find the right balance between being too passive, and becoming a ball hog.
I agree that some of this is a product of his unselfishness, which also doubles as a positive in terms of his efficiency and overall effectiveness. And I am not saying he should have a higher usage % than say Fox or ever have the highest usage rate on the team.
But TD? Buddy? Marvin? Come on. No coach should be allowing him and Holmes to be so underutilized as part of the total team concept.
I’ve never understood how folks interpret “athleticism.” Is Rese somehow less “athletic” than Magic? Bird? Dirk? Pierce? Luka? Harden? Curry? Nash? Jokic? Kidd? CP3? Klay?
Who cares if he isn’t going to dunk like Dominique Wilkins or Shawn Kemp?
Rese has all the functional athleticism he needs to be a star in this league, so long as he continues to progress with his on-court production!
Haliburton will be fine, because he plays with such smarts, but that’s not what I was talking about in regard to his athleticism. His ability to create shots for himself is far more limited than Fox’s, and that isn’t likely to change. He isn’t going to blow by people, and he isn’t going to jump higher than most players to create a clean look when he absolutely needs one.
He’s a crafty one, though, and that will go a long way in his work to become a top-level player. I have no doubt that he’s going to make his share of game-winners in his career, but you’ll never just be able to inbound the ball to him, get everyone out of the way, and expect him to get free. When the ball goes to Fox, everyone knows that he’s going to the hoop to shoot or kick, and there’s still not a hell of a lot that can be done about it.
None of this is meant as criticism, I love Ty’s game, and he will put his team in position to win in crunch time. It’s a simple acknowledgment that in some important ways, he’s got a ceiling that no amount of smarts or work will change.
Personally, if we’re forced to choose (which we really aren’t, but that’s the conversation we’re having) I would take the guy that scores more efficiently and creates more buckets for the team over the course of the game over the guys that creates his own shot in crunch time. Remembering that the goal is for the TEAM to score the most points per possession throughout the game. Not for an individual to score the most iso points in “crunch time.”
But since we don’t really have to choose, we need Fox to learn how to play off the ball on offense in non-crunch time. With some movement practice he should be able to be a lethal cutter, hit a few CnS 3s, and even be a nuisance flying in for offensive boards. Then he can handle more in transition and late in the clock ISOs, while ceding facilitating duties to Haliburton in half-court sets.
One detail I noticed recently is that Tyrese’s drives, whether on pick and roll (seemingly most of the time) or without a screen, are sucking in defenders and leaving Kings players open on the perimeter. Here is one good example:
Every defender is locked in on the ball and indeed ditches their own man to address Ty’s drive except for the defender on Buddy in the strong side corner. Instead of barreling into a Dallas block, Haliburton gets it to Metu who makes the 3.
I feel like I’ve seen this more in the past few games than earlier in the season.
it’s been a long time since we’ve had a point guard who passes this well.
We probably haven’t had one since we signed Emmanual Mudiay to that 10-day contract! 😉
a brief stint of Rondo. Beno was not bad. Spanish chocolate off the bench. it’s really since Bibby, I think.
Funny thing is, Fox is currently 5th in Sac. history in assists, and he may pass Reggie Theus, Spud Webb and Mitch Richmond this year, placing him behind only Bibby. Some of that is volume based, for sure, coupled with the dearth of playmaking point guards in Sac. history. But Fox has been a capable distributor overall.
Ugh, you and your irrefutable facts.
Pass me a beer!
Is it me, or have statcounters become more generous in awarding assists over the years?
I see a simple pass on the perimeter, two dribbles into traffic, a fake and a tough floater and BOOM! another assist.
Greivis Vásquez is hurt and confused
Ha ha. Forgot about Greivis
Greivis is filing his greivances
It was a Greivis omission?
Vásquezus for the rest of us!
Ha! Greivis is a bit of a punchline in Sac, but remember, he was a total bada** at the University of Maryland back in the day! Never forget!
Forget 84 years from now….that’s Kings fans right now.
Bit of a thread jack, but if you could add one former Sacramento Kings player to this roster (playing at their prime level), who would it be? My first pick would be Chris Webber, but my second just might be Ron Artest.
With this roster, it would be Peja at SF for me.
Those are probably the “correct” answers, but Peja in todays three-point chucking NBA would be amazing!
I also think the Rock would be at least a Donovan Mitchell type player, if not better.
Edit: quick check of stats, and accounting for the slower pace of the old time and the differences in rules for defenders, the Rock would be an absolute super star in today’s NBA!
Mitch Richmond would be livid!
Playing on all those terrible teams, and now he has to be transported into the future into this future basketball hell incarnation?
Skipping him past the Glory Years like he’s a Goodwill bookend!
I was using a very narrow scope – add to current roster with no other moves. But if I broadened the thought to encompass asset management, Richmond would be #1, especially with his criminally low contract (even after adjusting for inflation).
JWill would not be the best but easily the most fun ! Nightly ESPN highlights ! I would settle for excitement and fun right now ! Also, he was the starting point on an NBA Champ and doubt any current King will be !
John Salmons
(not that he did anything to deserve this punishment)
There’s plenty of fish in the sea to choose from.
I immediately think Peja or Webber, but I’m gonna go more unconventional. If it is their prime level…Gerald Wallace would be a nice add to the current roster. The Kings don’t need more shooting in Peja and I’m not sure CWebb’s game translates to this era of basketball or roster. Slot in prime (Charlotte era) Gerald Wallace and you have an elite defender able to guard 4 positions.
And maybe a Slam Dunk Champion!
No joke, look at his lone all-star year in Charlotte (09-10). 18 and 10 while with a .586 TS%, and 11.5 WS, and a low usage of just 20%.
…how about Tyreke Evans? (just to name someone who hasn’t been named yet)
Someone say DeMarcus.
Speaking of centers….anyone remember at the end of the 2006-07 season when Justin Williams was averaging a crazy amount of dunks and rebounds?
Does Vince Carter count? 😉
I think, and I am happy he has been doing well don’t get me wrong, that it has to be mentioned that the last 10 games have seen a lot of G-League players taking the court against him.
Not really at the guard position. He was defended by the likes of Dejounte Murray, Curry, Morant, SGA, and Bledsoe while Fox was out.
I was going to put this in the chainmail thread but perhaps this is more appropriate.
In W’s (team ORtg 118.8 DRtg 109.7)
Player A: ORtg 120.1 DRtg 110.7 TS% 54.1 USG%: 28 TOV%: 8.2% AST% 25.5
Player B: ORtg 114.8 DRtg 109.3 TS% 62.1 USG% 16.6 TOV%: 9.6% AST%: 31.6%
In L’s (team ORtg 101.6 DRtg 115.2)
Player A: ORtg 100.7 DRtg 120.3 TS% 50.7 USG%: 26.8 TOV%: 12.2% AST% 22.8
Player B: ORtg 100.1 DRtg 112.9 TS% 53.6 USG%: 17.6 TOV%: 12% AST% 28.2
If you can’t tell which of these is De’Aaron Fox and Tyrese Haliburton, here’s the link.
But this is besides the point. Tyrese Haliburton is a talented young player with room to grow still. But if you anoint him the savior (as the Kings unwisely did with De’Aaron as a young player), you’re going to have the same problems. Like, oh I don’t know, the fact that your roster isn’t competitive enough consistently. Tyrese is many things on the court and I enjoy them. But he can’t make up for a lack of talent, Chris Paul he is not. Tyrese is a 21 soon to be 22 year old player. He’s got time. He’s already proven to be the best draft pick the Kings have had since De’Aaron Fox who in turn is the best draft pick the Kings have had since Peja Stojakovic.
So, in that vein, why are we so eager to move Fox because he hasn’t succeeded in changing the franchise culture, putting W’s on the board, making up for talent on the roster overall, and we’re eager to put Tyrese in this position because…..why exactly?
Let me ask this: How valuable is a guy’s passing if there is nobody to actually score the damn ball on a consistent basis?
Last, it’s been assumed that trading De’Aaron is both the easiest and most reasonable path to rebuilding and pushing this roster ahead. But I disagree for several reasons. One, a team has have to rookie max extension slot on their roster (most teams have at least one) to trade for De’Aaron. Two, don’t you have to get something really valuable in trade?
It’s one thing to say you’re going to dump Buddy Hield and his salary. It’s another thing to say you’re going to trade Harrison Barnes and Richaun Holmes for something of value because it’s the right time to do so. It’s another to give up on a 24 year old because things aren’t going smoothly. If there isn’t enough talent around De’Aaron to win, why would there be if you start building around Tyrese?
I can live with the notion of moving on from De’Aaron Fox. I said over the summer this season would be a referendum on him to a large degree and by and large his performance has been disappointing. But so have other players, and so have the circumstances. Maybe I’m wrong about Tyrese Haliburton being a super role player (think Doug Christie 20 years ago), but I’m not wrong to say that Haliburton needs more talent.
Fox might be the more talented of the two, and Haliburton might be the more important to winning games. But the most likely and reasonable path is adding talent around them, not moving on from Fox because Haliburton is the shiny new toy that reminds people of everything that has been wrong with this team over many years but not specifically with Tyrese.
It is okay to have both, that’s the point. And that’s where you should start.
I agree that they can work together. They are a very solid back court pairing, but I just don’t see how the team adds talent without moving one of them.
Buddy, Barnes, Holmes, etc, arent’ going to net the Kings a positive player. If there was same crazy scenario where you could package two of them for star (Buddy and Barnes for Ingram?), but I’m not seeing it.
I feel keeping both talented guards keeps the Kings dog paddling in late lottery purgatory. At some point you have to make a gutsy move to build a balanced and talented roster.
From that, if Monte feels he has to move one of them, I feel it should be Fox, and a lot of that has to do with his contract. Hali is cheaper, younger, and allows you to build from the ground up.
You’d have to include picks which I think the Kings have always been reluctant to do but should. Barnes and Holmes for Sabonis and LeVert (although I’d try and trade LeVert to a 3rd team if possible) plus 2 unprotected FRP’s. I don’t want Turner, and I’m not putting anything of real value on the table for him. If that’s not good enough for Indy to get Sabonis, fine it’s not. You can’t make happen what’s not available.
I don’t think you get what entails trading a max slot player. And if you’re not going to get anything of serious value (and the best I’ve seen came from CatterJ who offered up a RJ Barrett plus 2 FRP’s that are likely middle of the 1st round) . Let’s assume for a moment that Barrett is the best deal out there, that’s not enough for me. Fox has too much potential and Barrett is a quality player and I’d rather have him than Harrison Barnes. But…..that’s mainly due to contract.
I would like the Kings to improve their roster, and I would like them to improve it however Monte and the Basketball Ops people feel best. There’s no sacred cow here, IMO, that is so worth keeping. That includes Tyrese.
The thing is trading De’Aaron Fox would be more about dumping his money, and I don’t feel that’s worth doing. The Kings committed, right or wrong, a max slot deal to De’Aaron and it’s now up to them to commit the appropriate amount of resources of building around him and Tyrese Haliburton.
But you can’t do that if you’re trying to make everyone happy, and if you’re scared that something won’t work out the way you want it to. Which I think is the real sin of this ownership group, and has been from day one.
I understand the max contract slot, but I don’t think it would be an issue for any team that might be interested in Fox. Just off the top of my head, there are only a few teams that have the need and timeline for Fox. Those teams might include: Knicks, Pels, Houston, Pacers, Pistons, and Celtics, none of which have used all of their max slots. I’m guessing the Pels might want to save it for Zion (which I think would be a mistake) but the rest may swing for Fox if the trade levels out.
Looking at the rosters of the teams you mentioned (Pels excluded if need be), do you see any realistic deals for Fox on those teams that you’d be happy with?
I’d absolutely love Jaylen Brown. I’d be willing to give up Fox, picks and anyone not named Haliburton to land him.
Nate mentioned Barrett picks and filler from the Knicks, but that doesn’t interest me too much. If the Knicks are really shoppoing Randle, I’d listen to a Fox package for him.
Pistons would be likely want to include Grant and filler. I’d love to get Bey from them, but that ain’t happening. Grant, Lyles and Garza for Fox?
I’d love to land Sengun from Houston, but I don’t think they move him. Sengun and Eric Gordon for Fox works. Maybe the Kings could flip Gordon elsewhere.
An Indy deal would be nice. I mentioned it yesterday but I wonder if they would want to pair Fox next to Brogdon. LeVert and Turner for Fox and Bagley works, but Indy would likely want more. A lineup of Hali, LeVert, Barnes, Turner, and Holmes would be big and long.
Pels have both max slots open, FWIW. Ingram didn’t sign a max rookie extension, he signed a new max deal after his 4th season. They are basically the same, the main difference is you get the extension a year early.
Ahhh, didn’t catch that. I thought Ingram was on a rookie max extension.
Which means they trade Hali and build around Fox because Kangz.
And there are no circumstances that you can imagine where something like this might work?
This is exactly what befuddles me. Why can’t the Kings keep both?
They totally can, and may, but I’d then want to them to sell off the rest of the roster for future assets. Maybe you can get a pick or prospects for selling of Buddy, Barnes and/or possibly Holmes.
A bag of chips. I’ve been told adamantly and often that Buddy Hield should be traded for a bag of chips.
Buddy for a human that can dribble and occasionally plays defense.
Bagley for chips.
They can.
But you don’t get something without giving up something. So, what do we have to give up other than Fox that would result in significant improvement?
It would need to be a team looking to dump a star and the Kings willing to include a pick(s), which is something they have never done in order to acquire superior talent.
Maybe Barnes, Buddy and a pick(s) can land the Kings someone like a Ingram, Randle or Sabonis?
I’d imagine a Kings pick is pretty valuable in other GM’s eyes, because it almost assuredly will be a lottery pick. If the Kings were giving up two, that might get you a star and more.
Yeah, I don’t see that. More like Fox and a pick! Or Hali or Mitchell or Holmes.
Which is why I keep saying use Fox as an asset. Not because I don’t like him, but he is the best choice when considering (a) needing to give up something of value; and (b) what do I have left to build around.
I keep Hali, Mitchell and Holmes and use Fox as part of a package to get a Fox-level or better (we add a pick) player that better balances the roster.
I dump dead weight – Buddy and Bagley. Don’t care if I lose those trades.
Of course, you can. The question remains the same: How are the Kings going to acquire the impact talent they need to become a winner? You’ve decided not to use two of your most valuable trade chips. Okay! Now what DO you do?
It’s so frustrating. “Trade a bundle of our crap for Siakam!” is not a realistic plan!
https://twitter.com/SactownAnthony/status/1478444823828856839
I never said trade a bundle of crap for Siakam. Your idea and my idea of what’s valuable is different.
The difference is, I’m right.
My more recent plan involves creating space, just saying fuck it, and throwing way too much money at Miles Bridges and Nik Claxton. Then, if/when CHA matches, offering to take Heyward’s contract off their hands in exchange for some combination of Jones/Thor/pick(s).
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