The NBA Trade Deadline is February 8th, about two weeks away. The big question hovering over the Sacramento Kings for the next two weeks is what, if anything, Monte McNair will do to improve the Kings prior to the deadline. Normally, for anyone team in Sacramento’s situation it would simply be assumed that the team would make a move. After all, the Kings are a good but far from great team with clear flaws, and in the middle of a bit a stumble (Monday’s win over Atlanta notwithstanding). But Monte McNair has not been one to do what’s expected.
McNair has stood firm at multiple key junctures. For years it was expected that the Kings would trade Harrison Barnes at the deadline, and yet Barnes remains. It was thought that the Kings would get upgrades at last year’s trade deadline, yet the Kings held pat. It was thought that the Kings could make a splash in free agency this summer, as the Kings would not project to have cap space again anytime in the near future, and yet the Kings opted to extend Domantas Sabonis, re-sign Harrison Barnes, and mostly run it back with the same core.
The argument in favor of these moves, or lack thereof, has been twofold. There’s the regular argument that it takes two to tango. You can’t force another team to trade with you. And while that is true, you can incentivize teams to trade with you by including additional assets, which the Kings have not been able to do to get deals across the finish line. The other argument is that we don’t want the Kings to include additional assets. The idea that sometimes the best move is the move you don’t make, and that patience and prudence are the way to go. But this is the NBA, and there’s no trophy for having the most disciplined evaluative process. The NBA is judged by wins and losses. If, time and time again, teams aren’t willing to trade players for what you feel is a fair return, then perhaps the Kings are overvaluing their assets. If one GM doesn’t like your offer, maybe you’re just dealing with Masai. If no teams like your offer, maybe you’ve become Masai.
Anyone watching the Kings right now can see that they have issues. The defense is still non-existent, the team regularly fails to close out games, and the team starts too many games with a complete lack of urgency. The vibes are off. A shake up is needed.
While I understand that the Kings need to avoid making a big mistake, they also need to avoid failure by complacency. The Kings banked on internal improvement and cohesiveness, and it isn’t working. The team is, at best, as good as they were last season, although several key indicators suggest the Kings are worse despite having the same record. But the rest of the West got better. Growth isn’t linear, but growth also is not promised. Windows in the NBA are never open as long as we think they will be, and teams can fall apart just as quickly as they rise.
The Kings gain nothing by waiting. Sure, players may become available next summer that aren’t available at the deadline, we see it happen every year. But if the Kings lack the assets now to land a big splash, there’s nothing to suggest their assets will be better this summer. The Kings will not have cap space. The Kings will not have their first round pick this year (unless they fall out of the playoffs or lose in the play-in). The cupboard isn’t bare right now, the Kings have their future picks and various salaries for matching purposes, but the cupboard isn’t getting anything added to it either.
I do not envy the Kings front office right now. They have a solid core that isn’t good enough to carry the rest of the roster.
The Kings need to make a move. Find a way to make this team better, or risk watching the season slip away.
Breaking: The Kings today traded Status Quo for cash considerations and a future 2nd round pick.
Did they create a TPE?
Apparently Status Quo could not play SF.
Something must be done!
I don’t know what that thing should be!
Something must be done!
If we must overpay to make something happen, then so be it!
Something must be done!
There is no possibility of any move making things worse!
Something must be done!
Doesn’t matter if it’s feasible!
The Kings don’t have a lot of assets! Why won’t McNair force teams to make trades favorable to the Kings?
Something must be done!
Changes need to happen for the team to make a move up, but McNair slow-played things for a couple of years, snagged an all-star center, and turned a sixteen-year loser into a three seed.
The man knows what he’s doing. Action for action’s sake is foolish. If there is a move to be made that will improve the Kings, McNair will make it.
No idea what will happen ahead of the deadline, if anything. I’m content to let McNair set his own pace, but only because his doing so has worked in Sacramento’s favor since he took the job.
Monte will get it done, do not fret TKH!
My issue with Monte is simply that he hasn’t done a good job of drafting/bringing in assets.
Davion/Duarte/Young’s guys he drafted etc
But he has to do something now or this team will follow the Atlanta path back down to middling
I have to give McNair a pretty screaming good grade on drafting. Haliburton, Mitchell, Murray. On the sum, that’s pretty freakin’ good.
I don’t put much value in 2nd round picks – they’re longshot lottery tickets. Whatever misses the Kings have had there, they did sign Keon Ellis the moment he went undrafted.
The trading of Hali was ballsy, and he got Lyles for free in the Det. deal. I don’t mind the dart throws of Vez or Duarte. Those are the exact types of shots that small market teams take in their search for market value.
So for me, the issue really has nothing to do with what the front office has or has not done to this point, as they engineered a pretty remarkable turnaround in a short amount of time. The issue for me is that the Kings currently have an imbalanced roster, and a lot of teams are exploiting the weakness on the wing. For whatever reason (I’m guessing lack of recognition or effort was not the reason), this was not addressed in the off season, and now it is being exposed on a semi-regular basis. A team that wishes to continue on an upward trajectory needs to address this, perhaps sooner than later.
I wrote it a bit awkwardly-didn’t mean he hasn’t done a good job with the draft overall. ….Meant- he hasn’t brought in much in the way of traceable assets w later picks and FA/trades.
Davion/Duarte-later picks. Traded away a late first rounds last year.
I don’t see much in the way of assets now that they need them. Look at the Knicks w later picks- IQ/Grimes etc.
I think overall Monte has done a great job. But part of the Kings predicament now in trading is because Monte has not stocked the cupboards with traceable pieces.
My two centsless:
The reasons that you don’t make a deal would be (a) your valuations do not match the marketplace (i.e. you don’t like the price tag), (b) you get outmaneuvered, (c) you like what you have in place, or (d) you lack the assets. Let’s break these down a bit.
Valuations: The market is the market. Either you play or you don’t. This is how billionaires get cities to build new arenas. It may not be right, but it is the world of supply and demand. Get in or get out. Now, there is absolutely nothing wrong with walking away from a deal that you feel is not of good value, but you also have to keep in mind that the pricing in the free agency and trade markets always escalate. NBA inflation never recedes. So if you think that the deals will get better later, you will very likely wind up holding an empty bag.
Outmaneuvered: I think this happened when the Kings almost had Hield dealt to the Lakers before they opted for Westbrook, and it is probably somewhat commonplace for GMs across the league to leverage deals against other GMs. I don’t know what you can do to not be on the losing end of one of these non-deals, but it is a results-driven league with an absolute limited number of GM jobs. You are graded on the result, not the effort. Am I saying McNair’s job should be on the line right now? Absolutely not. But his performance is judged solely on the performance of the team. If the team does not improve, well, the results are the results.
You like where you are: I don’t see this being a viable viewpoint for this team in the here and now. At the very least, you have to be looking for incremental improvement and better balancing of the roster.
Assets: The Kings are not as rich in assets as some other teams, but they certainly possess the assets to make an incremental deal.
The Kings came out of last season with a ton of positive momentum. They sold their 1st round draft pick to offload Holmes’ salary, and then, for whatever the above reasons, wound up re-signing Harrison Barnes. They signed some middling bench pieces (albeit with hopeful upside) in Duarte and Vezenkov. So they basically came into this season relying on internal growth and symmetry. And the results have been, at best, mixed, due to their recent travails. Maybe they’ll right the ship on their own. And maybe it will become a bit of a lost season in a league where windows open and close rather quickly. And when either happens, the front office will appropriately lauded or lambasted for what it did or did not do.
From my perch of knows-nothingness, I would overpay to improve the wing depth on the roster (especially on the defensive end) while unloading the some of the redundancy of Barnes / Lyles / Vezenkov. Easier said than done, but that’s why (among other reasons) I’m not an NBA. And Monte McNair is.
Very well said/written.
A bit of revisionism here on the Barnes signing. After Grant and Kuzma received such substantial overpays, and that the Kings were smart to steer clear. The overwhelming consensus around here was that the Barnes deal was very solid.
In retrospect, people feel differently. Kuzma’s deal, which, while it declines in salary as it progresses, never drops below Barnes’, and the team is still ankled do Kuzma for an extra year. How much better do you think the Kings would be if they had landed KK, and let Barnes go?
Grant has been excellent this season, and I think would help Sacramento in a way that Kuzma cannot. That said, and revisiting the signing, if there were people insisting that Portland made a smart move for that price, they weren’t exactly beating a drum on David Stern Walk to make their point.
So Grant has been better than expected, and would help the Kings, although he’s not that missing third piece, as such. Who and what is sent to Portland in order to obtain him?
The Blazers are bad and in a rebuild, which in a way, makes them far less compelled to move Grant. He won’t come close to finishing his contract there, but when he goes, they can wait until they get pretty much everything they want. So again, who and what is sent to Portland in order to obtain him?
As the deadline approaches, I’ve been pleased to see that there are relatively few trade proposals being thrown around in the fora which are patently ridiculous. It feels like people are making reality a key part of their thought processes, and that is wonderful, and appreciated. That said, I’ve not seen (and I miss stuff) much in the way of avenues to get Grant that make sense for both teams.
This isn’t a criticism. It shows an acknowledgment that finding that balance is incredibly difficult.
We can swap out Grant’s name for a Caruso, a Herb Jones, an Okoro or a Jalen Smith, and while the price may come down a bit, the price is still going to sting. For any of these guys, who and what goes out in order to acquire any of them?
Presumably, McNair wants to keep his job, and isn’t averse to winning another Exec of the Year plaque. He has been cautious, but not to the organization’s detriment. The entire basketball world lost control of its bowels when he sent out one of the most talked about young players in the league, and the protestations around here have, to a large extent, ceased.
There is also the factor that the league understands that Sacramento is in a position of immediate pressure, and that must be added to the calculus of any proposal. Do we need changes? Definitely. Is that fact a secret? Not remotely.
It’s fun speculating what the addition of certain players could do for the Kings, and I enjoy it as much as anyone. It’s part of being a fan. (Forgive me for telling people how to fan.)
Less pleasurable, of course, is considering what the outgoing assets will affect to the negative. Put names and draft picks on this, and we can have a conversation of substance.
As we have seen again and again, change and improvement are not synonymous, and are, at best, a well-researched crapshoot.
I don’t have any ideas for a deal that I particularly love, because, in short, this shit is hard. So again, and acknowledging the fact that the team isn’t good enough at the moment, who and what goes out in order to improve the Sacramento Kings?
Everything else is just noise.
This is your response to
What, pray tell is revisionist about this? They either re-signed Barnes because of their valuations, or they got outmaneuvered, or they liked where they were.
I stopped reading after that, Simsy. If that’s your temperature this morning, I’m going to move on to more earnest pursuits. Have a great day.
Does “for whatever reason” not suggest a feeling of negativity about the signing that may or may not have been voiced at the time of the signing?
I’m seriously asking. If I’ve misinterpreted the intent of the phrase, I do apologize.
Reading: It’s fundamental.
The “above reasons” being valuations, outmaneuvered, you like where you are, assets.
I don’t think that I misinterpreted the tone of the sentence, “above” or no. Only you know for certain.
It provides true convenience in not addressing the larger premise that the Barnes re-signing was overwhelmingly well-received in light of the Kuzma and Grant deals.
I don’t need to tell you that this is bait, and I would ignore it completely.
I offered no opinion on the Barnes signing here (which I was OK with under the circumstances at the time). I offered only the circumstances under which the deal could have possibly come together, as part of a factual recounting of this organization’s transactions since last season ended. I was not passing judgment on the signing. The results are what will ultimately pass judgment on the signing.
Sorry, Sims. You misinterpreted it 100%. And yes, I know that for certain.
“THIS SHIT IS HARD”.
It is not as hard as you make it out to be. It has always been about building out around Fox and Ox. Thats it. Thats the fundamental starting and end point. That is what our GM has tried to do with every move, betting on probability not certainy. This was the dice rolled with the acquisition of Keon, Sasha, Duarte, Lyles, etc.
Clearly, we are looking for SPACING and DEFENSE around our hubs. Some have hit some of missed so are TBD.
Where are the fans advocating to KEEP Huerter. We probably should keep him. And we sadly need to consider trading Monk, as I outlined above.
A lot of words amounting to nothing, just tepid generalities fence straddling and inherent contradictions, from your know-nothing perch (your words not mine).
“NBA inflation never recedes?” LOL what. Let me help you. The trade market is dependent on the relative number of buyers and sellers. It looks like there may be more buyers than sellers this deadline. That would in theory inflate cost. We’ll see. If there are more sellers, more than anticipated, then there will be bargain assets to be had, in theory. Thats what our GM is waiting for / counting on.
And even if there are more buyers than sellers, it is still incumbent on GMs to be prudent in what they pay or ask. There is NO extrinsic market force compelling a GM to pay for more a player than in the past. When a GM overpays it is not because he had to do so, it is because he lacked the proper discipline and self-control.
Others may be persuaded by your word salad (see the five thumbs up), I am not.
I like the way you mock my arguments while also completely misconstruing them.
I thought of it more as a Cliff’s Notes dumbing-down of a well-written article that we find this time of year.
The problems are always the same, and while they may vary by degree, it comes down to what do we need, and what is the appropriate and/or cost to get it?
Opinions will vary on that topic, although I feel that I’m seeing fewer takes on the latter part of the question.
There isn’t any question that you provide thoughtful and considered thoughts to the discourse. Second-guessing deals or non-deals is certainly fair game, and can be constructive on occasion.
The bottom line for me, I suppose, is that given our understanding of assets in Sacramento (and possibly overvaluing them, as you suggest), at this moment, are you confident that McNair will do the right thing/not do the wrong thing when it comes to trades? If not, in an ideal world, who would you prefer was in the GM chair making those decisions?
I hope there will be changes, because they look to be required in order for the team to take a substantial step forward. I would, every time, rather do nothing than do something likely to be detrimental. So-called good deals can turn out poorly, and bad deals can end up making a GM look like a genius, and neither of the scenarios are all that uncommon. You make decisions based on the near-term, hope you’ve accurately predicted the long-term, then the universe does whatever it wants.
There are outcomes about the trade deadline that I don’t particularly embrace, and remaining as-is isn’t one of them. The fact is, this may end up being the correct way to proceed.
So, do you hold a reasonable expectation that McNair will make the best decision based on available information? No one is perfect, but after a few years of watching him operate, I’m in the yes category. I just don’t have a solid reason to feel otherwise.
That said, we’ll see what happens in the next few weeks. And then, the next few years.
I don’t disagree that as constructed they are flawed. Could they win a first round series? Maybe depends on matchups..wouldn’t favor it. They need a defensive minded wing who can also shoot as a reasonable clip or a more imposing defensive presence on the inside. We are not blind and neither is Monte. Those aren’t easy to find or free to trade.
At same point, the narrative or tone around the team for the past week would be drastically different if a Dame shot doesn’t go in or they don’t blow a huge lead late to Phoenix. It easily could have happened. If this team was 26-16 (50+ win pace) with some quality road wins in the past 5 games what would we be saying? That said, they aren’t and the record is what it is.
They aren’t av championship quality team obviously, but they are a 3-4 game win streak from being a 5/6 seed. Which I think is what most of us hoped or expected at beginning of the year. Success is not always linear..lots of eventual championship level teams had several years of middling playoff success before turning the corner. The Kings are potentially in the early stages of that.
If a move arrives to possibly dramatically improve team, great go for it…if it doesn’t (Which I don’t think it will currently) then I don’t think there is anything wrong with waiting in their current situation. If that means they are a play in team this year, then so be it. They have most of their core locked up long term and no absolutely unmovable contracts. They shouldn’t feel desperate in mind.
I think that we would still say that the defense isn’t cutting it, and that is very hard to argue.
I also think most of us will agree that something feels off about the team this year. Offensively, it lost some of its swagger or poise or whatever you want to call it.
Yeah, at 26-16 I see a team that is on pace for a successful regular season, but will be very matchup dependent come playoffs due to some very obvious roster holes at the wing (especially defensively).
Put another way, if Fox, Sabonis, Murray and Monk are playing out of their collective minds, they can beat anyone. But if any two of them are off their game, anyone can beat them.
Here’s the thing that gets me about the Kings big 4, they are each having the best year of their careers, and the Kings are still not quite as good as they were last year.
When your 4 best players are having career years but the team hasn’t improve, something is off. It could be argued that the core has had internal growth that was expected, but every other player has regressed or not performed to expectations. From that, changes need to be made on the periphery, but assets are few. I’m still under the mindset that Kings can move Monk in package for better wing defense. He’s the one core player I think the Kings can live without, and even improve, if the right pieces are adjusted.
To that end, if the organization has determined that Sabonis and Murray are part of the big 3, then Barnes is not the fulcrum up front. This is not Barnes’ fault any more than it is Sabonis’ or Murray’s fault. It is a function of fit.
Aaron Gordon for Gary Harris, RJ Hampton and a protected 1st round pick. That 2021 trade took an aging Paul Millsap out of the Nuggets’ starting lineup and placed Gordon in between Jokic and Michael Porter, Jr.
That’s what the Kings need. Easier said than done.
Totally agree. Maybe it’s out there, maybe it’s Jerami Grant or Kuzma (I have my doubts there). Either way, I feel there is something out there that cracks the team’s starting unit. I just can’t imagine the Kings going into summer with the same starters. If they do, I think there is a very strong chance the Kings lose their pick this year, kick the can down the road with the same starting 5 entering camp because there will be very little flexibility to improve. There is also a very real chance of Monk walking and the Kings being capped out. They could stand pat and actually get worse.
Yeah I agree. Anyone can see the defense isn’t there. But I think the collective feeling that something must be done and what the hell is wrong with this team attitude that some have had would be much less prevalent.
I agree that I don’t think there is anything out there.
I think the team is in a funk because:
One part of me thinks Monte didn’t upgrade in the previous trade deadline/offseason because there were no upgrades to be had. Then I wonder why the hell didn’t they get Thybulle? He was available. Small addition that could have paid off.
This trade deadline I’m not sure there is an option that will put them over the top. I’m not sold on Grant; however, I certainly can be wrong. If they get Grant, I hope they get Thybulle also.
Not sure if they need a guy like Siakam. Do they need a big scorer or do they just need a Barnes who can play better defense and rebound? When you see teams demanding two first-rounders for Finney-Smith or Caruso, you have to ask if those guys will put you over the top? (I like Caruso, but how much further does he get you?) If you send two firsts for either of those guys, do you have resources for a future deal that will put you over the top? I don’t think so.
The only guy I would push four first round picks out there for is Mikel Bridges. Otherwise, I’m hunting for Thybulle, guys like that.
Last thought, I don’t think you trade Huerter. When he is not in a slump, he does a lot more than hit threes. He’s passing, rebounding and hitting shots from inside the 3-point line. He adds to the dynamism of this team. I think you keep him another year and see if he can calm his mind down. Make him meditate all off season.
This team is all ice and no fire. We don’t have a vocal, physical enforcer that demands accountability for us and respect from the opponent. Even if it’s a backup, I hope we acquire a player that lights a fire under everyone. We need more aggression.
With that said, I really hope we swing for Dejounte Murray. Fox needs a backcourt partner that is a difference maker on both ends of the court. If not Murray then Herb Jones so we (finally) have a second starting quality forward.
If we can’t get Jones( a possibility) then next on my list in order is Tari Eason, Jalen Smith and or Alex Caruso or Matisse Thybulle.
The rumor that Herb Jones could be available was strongly refuted, according to Marc Stein.
The Bulls have shown no signs of trading Caruso, and if they did the asking price would be through the roof.
The Rockets and Pacers have no reason to trade Eason or Smith.
Thybulle is the only target you’ve listed who I think is actually available.
The Rockets were said to want a veteran forward to help with all the young players and be a locker room positive. They at one time not so long ago was looking at Barnes as that player.
Be cool to get Marcus Smart.
I completely agree!
In my opinion, the right move is to trust McNair and let the chips fall where they may whether there is a big trade or a smaller one. Smaller moves to shore up our interior defense seems to be a good idea. However, this league is dominated by what the star players in it want, and despite his age I think the wear and tear of playing especially with his style of play has Fox tired and he’s not content.
If all of a sudden Fox comes out and says he wants a trade, where does that leave us? I don’t follow contracts or even the NBA close enough to understand if its possible, but it seems Harden and Durant do it every other year so why can’t Fox? Are we to assume he’s loyal to the soil no matter what?
We should make a move to show him that we are trying to win now, whether or not it hurts us in the future. As a small market team these are the risks we have to make given the assets we have and the structure of the team. Sabonis was a great trade for both teams, but what makes him great for Sac outside of his play is that he isn’t a Diva. Fox has been a class act to date, but I don’t think his attitude of late or play should have fans feeling confident about our season with him as the leader
I think nobody is happy with Fox’s current play, his on-court demeanor and how he’s been avoiding the media lately.
Having said that, it could be nothing more than fatigue, small but nagging injuries, just a rough patch or something personal that has nothing to do with the team. Or any combination of the above.
I know we are all fretting over this team as fans, but I have to see something more tangible before I believe that Fox is tired of Sacramento or discontented with the coaching, FO and/or supporting cast.
Someone wrote somewhere that stars are more inclined to push through injuries instead of sitting out since the NBA instated a minimum game requirements for certain awards. That might be a factor, I don’t know.
I hope he gets back to his good form soon.
I agree. He looks injured/not 100% to me. Thing is I have heard nothing official announced about any injuries. If you go by the team’s silence on health, then the assumption is he is healthy. If he is healthy, then there could be much bigger issues.
Could be injuries, but how does that lead to giving local media the cold shoulder? The vibe I got from his interaction with the media after the Hawks game was defiance, not being tired or down in the dumps. I don’t know, I’m just out here guessing with everyone else, but I’m concerned as a fan.
To me, it seems the team’s biggest issue is attitude. Last year they had lots of positive vibes, played hard and loose all the time, banked several comeback wins for their efforts. This year they are playing tight, standing around too often, getting out-hustled. My butt-pulled guess is they’ve realized they are no better than they were last year, and it’s hard to keep the fire burning while knowing the rest of the conference has taken a step forward while you’ve remained in place. Monte’s mis-step this summer may have been not giving the team a reason to believe their potential this year is greater than last year’s was. The Warriors series loss was a humbling reality check, and nothing was done to push back against that.When the front office doesn’t make moves to show it wants to win a championship as quickly and as badly as its star players do, that’s a recipe for disillusionment.
The roster needs to change if they want to advance in the playoffs past the 1st round, and eventually compete for a title. Any of the players on the roster should be on the table if that is the eventual goal.
I am confident Monte won’t get bamboozled in any deal. So patience is probably a good thing. If a deal is not in the King’s favor, then don’t make the deal.
I completely agree.
I have never understood why so many on here thinks Fox should be untouchable. I have mentioned it on here and it is like blasphemy. I have never said they should trade him specifically but no way he should be untouchable. IMO, at any given time there are maybe only 3 or 4 untouchables in the league.
i thought I would throw this question out there. Can the Kings be a championship contending team with Fox and Sabonis as the two best players on the team? A corollary to that question – have we had a big enough sample size to answer that question?
Championship CONTENDING? Sure. I mean, you have two of the top 15 players from just a season ago (by all-NBA metrics), and they’re both young. The key is that they have to be at the top of their respective games, obtaining / developing a 3rd top flight player (Murray?), augmented by perfect-fit complementary players. No room for error, especially for a small market team such as the Kings.
I think so. That’s 2 All-NBA players on the roster. It’s not as common as one would think. Those teams generally run deep into the playoffs and are contenders every year. Last year the Celtics had 2 and they made it to the ECF. in 2022 it was the Suns who went 7 games in the Semis, in 2021 it was the Clips who lost in 7 in the WCF. In 2020 it was the Lakers who won it all.
If anything the Kings were the most underperforming team with 2 All-NBA players in recent memory
It should be all about building the supporting cast right now.
I don’t think so. Fox and Sabonis are fringe All NBA players. They are very, very good I would not say great.
Over the years, champions usually have a top 5 player in the world and his Robin is a top 5 player at his position. If you look back over champions since the 70s almost all of them fit this criteria. A few of the exemptions are the 04 Pistons, the 90s Rockets (who needed an MJ hiatus) and the Sonics in the 70s.
Respectfully, I did not know there was such a thing as a “fringe ALL NBA player.” Not trying to be glib here, but if you are even considered for an ALL NBA slot, you have to be, what, a top 20 or 25 player? That’s pretty rare air.
The top 5 player is sort of a chicken or the egg thing. You are are rarely considered a top 5 player until you at least make it to a conference final, the occasional Embiid notwithstanding. Kawhi was an All NBA player that lacked the top 5 moniker until his team busted through. Same for Steph Curry, honestly. And many, many others.
I guess the answer may be that Fox and Sabonis will not be viewed as championship contending leaders until such time that they get the Kings there, and that is certainly fair. They aren’t there today. But the NBA is littered with guys that were not considered top 5 players in the world when they were 25 and then ascended to that mantel as their careers (and situations) progressed. To your point, the NBA is also littered with ALL NBA guys that never crack that top 5.
They are both one time All NBA third team. They are not lock All NBA players by any means. Not trying to put them down just being realistic about where they rank.
Guys like Joker or Giannis were considered top 5 players before they won titles. Others become that after winning a title.
Some of this is semantics but going by the criteria I mentioned two All NBA players could satisfy it but then one of them should be first team. Fox and Sabonis are not there now.
They could get there for sure, maybe one of them could become top 5 by winning a title it is possible depending on the team put around them. Do I think they will? No, I don’t. The easy, lazy, obvious thing I can say is winning a championship is very very difficult. Beyond that, I have my doubts about Fox in particular getting to that level.
I get what you’re saying, but if I go by the bar that you set, Miami did not have a top 5 player (per ALL NBA) last year when Miami made it to the finals. Nor did the Warriors the prior year when they won the finals. Nor did the Suns the prior year when they made it to the finals. Nor did the Heat the prior year when they made it to the finals. Nor did the Raptors the prior year when they won the finals.
Now, all of the aforementioned teams had guys that were 2nd or 3rd team ALL NBA, and all of those guys were probably regarded as top 10 players at the time. Using that as a bar, either Sabonis or Fox would have to vault a few very good players to get to that same level.
As we sit here today, does Minnesota or Oklahoma City have a top 5 player? No. But if one or both of those teams reach the WCF this year, guys like Edwards and Shai are going to be seen in an elevated light, and respected at a level that perhaps they are not today. Chicken or egg?
Here is the bar I set:
“Over the years, champions usually have a top 5 player in the world and his Robin is a top 5 player at his position….”
I did not say contenders or runner ups.
I think you could argue Curry on the Warriors and Kawhi on the Raptors championship teams were both Top 5 players in the world at that time.
And there is a bit of chicken or egg to this. Some guys like Giannis or Lebron are no doubt about it top 5 in their prime. Others win a championship and elevate to that status.
My point of all this is I don’t think Fox or Sabonis is a top 5 player in the world and probably won’t be.
I’m not hating on them I’m just saying I don’t think they are the best of the best. This is much better than being losers and thinking about ping pong balls every single year though
Fair enough, but your initial response was to the question:
Emphasis mine.
But your expansive response did specify champions.
Sorry about the confusion.
I certainly would not Use Miami as a comparison of any sort. The Heat does everything right. Best scouting dept in the NBa. A committed defensive strategy. For not 1 or 2 years Try 20. Completely different culture and team philosophy. Riley is also a flat out genius. They had huge stars when they won All those titles. But now they have ballers that play the right way everytime all the time in the playoffs. When it matters.
Were the ’02 Kings Championship Contending? They only had one All NBA Player. Maybe he was “anti-fringe”
Speaking of 02 this is just 2nd year of our Core Build. Keegan will only get better next year. Worse case some Nothing Burger trades this trade deadline, but definitely need Whataburger trades in the summer.
I think some folks forget as well that the 2002 team took some roster shakeups at the last minute to come to what we remember it being. BJax was signed in the summer of 2000. Starter Corliss was traded for Christie in summer of 2000, also giving the opportunity for Peja to start in 2000-2001. Then JWill was moved for Bibby in 2001. That means it took the trade of two well liked starters to get that team that went to the WCF in 2002.
I feel the Kings have their Peja type player in Keegan and BJax in Monk, while Sabonis is a Webber/Divac hybrid. Fox has already surpassed Bibby/JWIll, but what they definitely need is a Christie type all-nba defender on the wing.
In the end, that team was tinkered with every year until it hit the WCF, so Monte sitting pat is going to get the team nowhere.
That’s interesting. I moved to Sacramento in 2001 and was not following the Kings then, was not aware of those 2000 trades.
I’ve been following the Kings for a looooong time and I still forget sometimes that the WCF team was Bibby’s first year with the squad.
I wonder how internet unpopular the J-Will for Bibby trade would have been? Or the Corliss for Christie trade? Both J-Will and Corliss were beloved by the fan base. Or what the threads would have looked like when we traded Richmond for Webber and Webber said that he wasn’t coming?
I too think about that.
That might be a Monk for Thybulle type situation, if it comes to pass.
Lots of folks (me included) were pissed in the Hali trade. I need to check back on the comments then but probably be worse than that esp for J-Will.
One more away from contending
There was sort of this four year ascension followed by a progressive descent. How far those teams got during Adelman’s run:
1st round
1st round
Semis
WCF
Semis
Semis
1st round
1st round
WCFucked by Refs
Or the less familiar WCFucking make more than 16 of your 30 game 7 FTs and you’re on your way to the finals!!!
Yes game 7 was a chokejob – fucking unfortunate
And the only core players from that first playoff crew who were still on the team for the WCF were the core of CWebb, Vlade, and Peja. They did have Pollard and Fuderburke.
Wait…are Len and Lyles our new Pollard and Funderburke?
There have been so many good comments in this thread that it’s difficult to know which one to respond to.
First TerzoM besides an obvious trade for a super star the fans on this site and most other fan driven sites will complain endlessly about the roster they support and when someone makes at least a semi reasonable trade suggestion these same fans tear down that proposal to the end of time.
There is risk in any and all trades but………just because there is risk doesn’t make the proposed trade actually becomes a guaranteed failure. Many times they make the team nominally better….at least
I was around in the early oughts and if I remember correctly even though we were still reading magazines and print media, BJax and Doug Christie were not generating major headlines at that time. If TKH was around then fan sentiments would have been strongly against the JWill trade and there would have been hundreds of comments against it.
Just look at the comments about what a waste of a pick Peja was…our darling Peja. You can’t please everybody and when it comes to sports you can’t please anybody.
Why does everyone reference 20 years ago. NBA is completely and utterly different in. Every facet in 2024. It hilarious to make comparisons of any sorts.
Two of Monte’s tendencies have contributed to this situation:
-The team has not prioritized drafting or acquiring athletic wings or defense-oriented frontcourt players. I’m speaking of guys with potential to be in the top 7-8, not your McGees or Duartes. Even this offseason, our big acquisition was a different version of Trey Lyles (Vez).
-The team has not sold high on players (Barnes most prominently, remember when he was worth a nice first or more?) (Mitchell this past offseason) (Monk right now?)
-The defense still stinks. Mike Brown seems to beat on the players for their lack of defensive execution, but the sum of a bunch of below-average and average-at-best defensive players is a below average defense. I wonder if the team is tiring of Brown.
“this situation”…?
Is the “situation” you’re speaking of the one where we are a team perennially expecting to make the playoffs as currently constructed?
Or the “situation” where we potentially aren’t going to win a ring in our second year of said construct and that’s “not good enough?”
Duarte was drafted 2 spots after Davion at like 11th. That’s bottom of the barrel compared to the 7th or 8th spot, I know.
The team already had the rights to ShaVez from last year’s draft so bringing him over was a flyer, essentially.
They’re taking low cost, high reward swings on players and they’re not exactly bombing home runs with them, I get it. But they’re also not compromising what little flexibility they have while staying postured for a move that will potentially complete this roster properly and fully open that championship window.
I credit Monte for not being overly reactive and sticking to his plan. It cannot be an easy thing to do in this day and age.
A couple things –
I think the Kings should try to get under the cap and add big salary players next year. Monk has superseded the early bird as of today if his poor recent play isnt a meaningful trend, and he’s as close to a Fox motor whisperer and team leader we have and his game has been unticking and improving
Its a sellers market. Toronto getting three picks and an expiring useful player for Siakam is so far off what the proposals here and Kings media have been and players like Jerami Grant or even Kuzma who are on longer deals could garner the same or more. There are several motivated vet teams competing to buy with the Kings
If I’m not mistaken, for the Kings to get under the cap they’d basically need to move Barnes and/or Huerter for expirings, and that wouldn’t take into consideration a likely lottery pick with it’s cap hold.
I just don’t see how they get under the cap by much AND become a free agent destination at the same time.
To pay Monk his market value which is early to mid 20s at this point (Spurs wanted to give Reaves 21 mil last summer if he wasn’t restricted)
there is still a lot of hometown thinking that Monk “likes” Sacramento enough to take early bird though he hasn’t accumulated much career earnings
2024 is a relatively weak FA market too with some fitting cap teams
Do you think he is worth it?
I don’t. I’d offer him somewhere around what Barnes and Huerter make and hope he takes a perceived discount. He’s just too much of a one way player, but it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if someone overpays for him. He has every right to get the most money he can.
I really do believe that with he cap continuing to go up and the new salary floor requirements to start the season, I think someone will give him $20m per year, which the Kings will be unable to match.
Fun read – lots of wise words and interesting thoughts.
The Kings are winning more than losing. They probably outperformed their standing. last season as 3rd in the Western Conf. and the Pacific Div champs in the division that supplied 5 of the 8 playoff spots (and 3-7).
Maybe this season’s team is more of a reality check. Maybe not underperforming but underwhelming our expectations.
As for sitting on stability as a strategy this Summer – I was, and am still, all for return of core as stability eluded this franchise as it endlessly carouseled coaches and players for too many seasons.
So far, it’s not been as good as hoped. It did return Sabonis (on a discount), Barnes and Lyles for reasonable deals. Took a chance and it didn’t pan out.
It is important to add that Sacramento is generally a team that can only build through trades and draft picks as Free Agency signings are little and few. Kuzma, Grant, Grant Williams, Dillon Brooks were not coming to the Cap of Cali.
Sac should look for a change by the deadline because they (likely) have no 2024!draft pick and again, little chance of FA signing of significance. In my opinion.
Why did Kings sign Barnes to such a huge deal if they didn’t plan to keep him? He’s the 5th starter on a team where #1-4 are ball dominant and #6 is the equivalent of #1 or 2 on any other team. Personally I say stick with him and perhaps involve him more in the planned offense, and live with his defensive skillset.
His contract is the asset. If he had walked the Kings would not have had the cap space to sign someone to a similar deal. It’s the use of Bird Rights as an apparatus to operate above the cap.
You have to spend to win and his contract may roll into something else down the pike.
Apparently now is the winter of our discontent, which outside of Gloucester is known as Do Something Monte!!!!
For me, I believe this team is a playoff team, so I’m more concerned with where the team is at in April than I am right now. Do I enjoy crap losses like Charlotte, Portland and Phoenix? I don’t, but I’m also too old and the NBA season is too long for me to get caught up in the manic depressive nature of soaring with each victory and crashing with each defeat. That’s just too exhausting over an NBA season. So, I’m just gonna sit back and see where the season goes.
Monte delivered what Geoff (for his last 7 seasons), Pete and Vlade could not- the playoffs. Hell, those guys couldn’t even deliver one .500 season over that time. So, I’m rolling with the guy that’s gotten us here. We begged for a competent GM for seemingly ever and now we’ve got one, so I’m content with giving the man space to work to upgrade the roster.
It took the the golden era Kings (98-04 in my book) 3 seasons to get out of the 1st round of the playoffs and the team had a basically identical winning percentage those first two seasons. I’m content to see where Monte takes us.
Hali has yet to play in a playoff game and misses a lot of games . He is a terrific young player but so far has lead no team anywhere . Hope he does this season but it’s time .
Sorry wrong placement. Reply to ajonz81 !
I like the mention of the poor starts, that was a big issue last year and still very big this year, always playing from behind is a huge problem. I always get the sense Monte has Vivek whispering in his ear not to risk things too much but that’s not working so time to change it up. I would lock Monk up for a few years extension and then basically be willing to get rid of anybody but the big 4.
Also hate to say it but stop making Monte some hero, he got rid of a Superstar #1 All-Star vote getter in Hali for DaBoner who is not as good, so his one big move was not even that great. I would’ve loved to see what happened if we stripped the roster and rolled with Hali, some OKC shit with picks. Fox still has not proven he can carry a team and be a superstar and D-Bone can’t either. Love this team but it’s currently constructed to just be good and lacks that bonafide superstar like Hali. Do something Monte some of your moves are failing.
I’m not a fan of the Warriors… Why am I in a warriors forum?
I still want to see this team run it back. one or two minor moves at the deadline might be fine. unless some amazing trade opportunity arises, I’d rather wait for the offseason to make a bigger move. this team was one of the better stories in the nba last year. not wanting to hook them off stage quite yet. and it’s definitely not the time to get desperate.
Yeah, they need to add some additional pieces to address the defense. I don’t foresee any major moves at the deadline. Still, something is not quite right with the team. Maybe it is roles, pressure, chemistry, or something else. They just seem off this season.
.
I was hype on Kuzma over the Summer. Not anymore. Not after he spurned us for higher usage on a Loser. A zebra does not change its spot. Same goes for Grant, who fancies himself 1A or 1B. Regardless, given the cost, it would be incremental improvement that leaves us waning and wanting. LaVine is even worse. NOP aren’t trading us Herb Jones without extracting a fortune. No way we get him. Why would they do us a favor? The guy we need is Caruso and the best trade chip we have is Monk. If we add Caruso and retain Red Diva, the sky is the limit.
I love Monk, he’s electric, the heart and soul, but it may be time to part ways, in particular, because we cannot afford him. Barring a fortuitious match-up, which is 50/50, another first round exit is pending. Sabonis and Fox are too good to go home so soon again. They are ready now. Keegan is not quite ready, though he is getting there. Hence the urgency to do something, to cater to our All-NBA duo, to complement their eliteness with external reinforcement.
Our 4 game losing streak coincided with trying to play Monk as our sole backup guard. The porous point of attack defense and wild forays in the pivotal moments was fatal vs PHX and MIL. Our coach knew this possibilty, which is why we cycled between Keon, Davion and Duarte as backup guard with Monk for most of the season, to provide secondary ball-handling and paint resistance.
This experiment failed, with Fox faltering too, hence, Davion tossed back into the mix vs ATL, providing nice point of attack defense, switching at the top of the key repeatedly to prevent the lane penetration. What we lost in offense we gained in defense and it was instrumental to securing the W. Any team that runs a non-motion offense, which excludes tonights opponent, and high pick and roll, where Davion is not spending a lot of time on the weak side, when he can switch onto the ball, is when and where he can be handy, until we move on and upgrade.
All the hand ringers and pearl clutchers can take solace in Huerter rediscovering his ability to hoop, to shoot with authority and rhythm, instead of a wing and a prayer. The bricks from deep were compounded by the timidity from inside. The dude was a complete mess, a shocking turn, psychologically damaged beyond repair, then a miracle transpired. Or reversion to the mean, take your pick.
Why should we trade Huerter? He’s young, he has size and maturity. His best days are ahead, assuming his head stays on straight. I waffled on him as much as any fan, from giddy over the acquisition and paltry cost to disgusted over his prolonged slump, wondering why he would never take a charge?
Now he’s shooting and attacking like he should, plus he is keeping his man in front of him with frequency. If it took this rocky phase to develop a two way player, it was worth it. He’s pretty damn good in help too. All Kings fans throwing him into the Trade Machine to obtain the latest rumored trade targer are way too eager for action under the presumed illusion of progress.
Tyus Jones is an awesome potential get, and capable starter. We could use him in a Monk trade and maybe add Gafford (and Kuzma?) too. The scoring we lose could be replaced with Tyus and Fox playing as a shooting guard. Let us compare the assist : TOV between the respective players.
Assist per game / TOV per game (Ratio):
Monk 5.5 / 2.1 (2.6)
Fox 5.6 / 2.5 (2.2)
Caruso 2.6 / 1.3 (2.0)
Tyus 6.0 / 0.8 (7.5) (!!!)
Tyus would be beneficial to our shooters, including Kevin, Sasha and Lyles, setting up Fox with drive and kicks, for drive and finishes. Tyus would the admission that Davion was a bust, awknowledging the obvious, the occassional one way player.
As much as we need wing defense, and more of a paint presence on D, our high octane offense sputters too much. Tyus would put an end to this while maximizng the scoring of our role players. Caruso is not the playmaker but he’s perfect in terms of plugging the holes in this roster, the versatile hard nosed beast to sic onto any scorer with nefarious intent. Grant can guard too, but he’s kind of soft (3.6 RPG, HB-esque).
Ultimately, know this. McGenius is not overpaying. Desperation is not his modus operandi. The idea of multiple first rounders for Kuzma and Grant is LAUGHABLE. We are better off signing Gordon Hayward when the Hornets buy him out. Guess how much he will cost us? Zero. Another prospective McGenius Special.
At the same time we don’t want to waste another brilliant season of Fox, current malaise withstanding, and Sabonis, the walking triple double, with a first round dismissal. Keegan is kind of ready, but not quite. Monk is playoff fortified, but he’s NOT a backup PG, or secured beyond our pending underdog postseason. Hence the dillemma. Barring heroics from our two All NBA players, a level up from Keegan, Huerter redeeming himself, we are not getting out of the First Round.
Maybe Keegan and Huerter peak at the right time, Lyles and Sasha too. With our all-stars dominating, saving their best for when it counts most, maybe we can get out of Round 1, may be even all the way to the Conference Finals. That is a lot of maybes, a lot of contigencies, a lot of stars that need to align. This is the reality when HB is your 5th starter, when your defense is bad more than not, and when you have NO legitimate backup PG.
Given all the stars that need to align, the favor needed from the basketball gods, we MUST consider trading Monk. All the sentiment and goodwill needs to be set aside. The callous nature of the business must take precedence.
Proposed Trade #1:
Monk, Keon and Two Second Rounders for Caruso….BOOM! LFG.
Proposed Trade #2:
HB, Monk (UFA), Davion and protected 2028 1st rounder for TYUS JONES (UFA) and Kuzma….BOOM! LFG.
Proposed Trade #3:
HB, Monk (UFA), McGee, and protected 2028 1st rounder for Daniel Gafford and Tyus Jones (UFA)….BOOM! LFG.
What do these trades have in common? Keep Kevin. Adios to the beloved UFA we are probably going to lose anyway.
The Wizards can take their demands for two 1st rounders for Kuzma and stuff it. They are getting one way off in the future and the electrifying Monk, an upgrade on Poole in every way. This trade is not my favorite unless we get premptive buy-in from Kuzma that he will accept a reduced role, on par with Keegan’s usage. Kuzma would give us nice length defensively, but I worry about the hieracrhy of scorers with this dynamic, since Keegan is on track to be 20 PPG plus on better effeciency than Kuzma.
Gafford is a guy I admittedly do not know a lot about, but he is emerging as a shot blocking presence (6.6% block rate), similar to McGee minus the misadventures.
If one of the trades materialize, or one like it, that is, in which the outlay is based on the probable loss of our 4th best player, then we are likely better off doing nothing, and hoping that Hayward is bought out, chooses us and stays healthy.
BOOM! LFG
Please explain to me why anyone would take a half season rental of Monk (UFA) as the centerpiece of any trade proposal?
I believe the team that acquires him would have an edge contractually to retain him. If I am wrong on this, then I concede to your point.
I think Bird Rights would still be something like 2 year, $19m annually. He could be signed for more in free agency by another team, or so I have heard…
Shake it up move: Monk, Vezenkov, Lyles, 4 firsts for Jaren Jackson.
Badge Legend