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Bucks 133, Kings 127: Stacking losses

Kings suffer their third loss in a row.
By | 112 Comments | Jan 22, 2022

Jan 22, 2022; Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA; Milwaukee Bucks forward Khris Middleton (22) and Sacramento Kings center Damian Jones (30) battle for a rebound in the third quarter at Fiserv Forum. Mandatory Credit: Benny Sieu-USA TODAY Sports

The Kings entered today’s matchup with some embarrassing wounds from losses to two of the worst teams in the NBA. Imagine black eyes and bandaged cuts and when someone asks them, “Good God, who did this to you?!” and their response is “The Houston Rockets and Detroit Pistons,” the once concerned party bursts out in laughter and walks away. That’s about where we are. To pour salt all over those wounds, the Kings began one of their hardest stretches of their schedule today with none other than the reigning champions in the Milwaukee Bucks. De’Aaron Fox was out with a sore ankle, while Giannis Antetokounmpo took the day off to rest a sore knee. Fun Saturday for everyone, right? Let’s see how it went:

Quick Stats

Outcome: Kings lose, 133-127

Sacramento Kings: 127 pts, 52.6% fg, 40.5% 3 pt, 62.5% ft, 29 ast, 48 reb, 14 to

Milwaukee Bucks: 133 pts, 49.5% fg, 50.0% 3 pt, 88.0% ft, 19 ast, 43 reb, 7 to

Other than a late rally in the final minutes that brought the Kings within comeback range, this game was overall… pretty boring. The Kings had a strong start, but once the Bucks evened things out and then took a decided lead, they never gave it up again. The Kings trailed within that 8-12 point range for 80% of the game and without any of the flashy play from De’Aaron Fox or Giannis Antetonkoumpo, there was a consistent lull throughout the night.

The Good, The Bad, & The Ugly
The Good
  1. Hot Out the Gate: The Kings came out hot to start the game, beginning with an in-rhythm 3-pointer from Terence Davis on the very first possession. This was followed up by a Harrison Barnes 3-point make on the very next Kings’ possession. The Kings caught the Bucks a bit by surprise, finishing the quarter shooting 5-12 from deep, connecting on seven assists, and leading 35-27.
  2. Late Run: The Bucks maintained a steady lead throughout the final three quarters, always answering any Kings’ runs with ones of their own. The Kings hung around, though, and with three minutes remaining, brought themselves within eight points. Within those final minutes, they got as close as three points, but ultimately were closed out by big time plays from Khris Middleton (34 points), Jrue Holiday (26 points), and Pat Connaughton (15 points). Despite the loss, it was promising to see Tyrese Haliburton embrace the responsibility of taking those shots and creating the plays to initiate that late run. Harrison Barnes also remained a steady force for the Kings down the stretch and finished with 29 points.
  3. Curing the Holmesickness: What’s the best way to cure homesickness? Going home to what you know. And the Kings did just that by getting back to their comfort zone and getting Richaun Holmes more involved on his third game back from injury. Holmes is still working on minutes restriction, but he got up to 25 minutes tonight and finished with 17 points and seven rebounds. Tyrese Haliburton recorded a handful of assists with his two-man game with Holmes. It was encouraging to see Holmes find more of a rhythm tonight as he’s such an integral part of this team’s success.
The Bad
  1. Dull Details: Remember when De’Aaron Fox explained the importance of playing ‘sharp’ in one of his pressers? That’s all I could think about tonight as I watched these two teams. While the Bucks made sharp cuts and precise passes, full of intention and execution, I saw the Kings struggle to even get on the same page on what the offensive intent was. On the defensive end, the Kings constantly fell asleep on the details. There were two back to back plays that will give me nightmares tonight where Buddy Hield and Marvin Bagley III turned their heads to ball watch and allowed their assignments to fly right by them for an open lane to the basket. The Kings continue to be dull on the details and little things and it continues to haunt them.
The Ugly
  1. Pathetic Perimeter Defense: Through every quarter, the Milwaukee Bucks shot 50% from behind the arc. That means that even after getting torched by allowing the Bucks to shoot 10-20 from 3 in the first half, the Kings did not show any recognition of even feeling the heat. The Bucks enjoyed open look after open look as the Kings continued to pack the paint, over help, and turn their back on shooters. The Bucks ended up shooting a total 21-42 from distance. Had the Kings made an adjustment on just a few of those shots, things could have been different for them.
The King of Kings

Tyrese Haliburton just enjoyed his jersey retirement ceremony at his hometown high school in Oshkosh, Wisconsin. With a section of supporters there to cheer him on, Haliburton made sure not to disappoint. He finished with 24 points, 12 assists, and shot 3-5 from deep.

Up Next

Tuesday, January 25th @ Boston Celtics – 4:30 P.M. (PT)

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sonny
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January 22, 2022 9:25 pm

Play-out Vivek!

rockbottom
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January 22, 2022 9:36 pm

Kings played well on offense but are simply awful on Defense ! Trade deadline coming and likely going ! Green light turning Red !

154-98
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January 22, 2022 9:38 pm

#FIREVIVEK

TheBaker
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January 22, 2022 9:40 pm

Haliburton is a savvy player. Nice to see players combine awareness with athletic ability. Not too many of those in the purple uniforms for the last several years.

AnybodyButBagley
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January 22, 2022 10:26 pm
Reply to  TheBaker

He deserves a decent team. Hope he Kangz don’t ruin him.

deepshot22
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January 22, 2022 10:00 pm

They’ll be bottom 5 in a week. Tanking while trying.

AnybodyButBagley
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January 22, 2022 10:27 pm
Reply to  deepshot22

Sad thing is that their maximum effort is the garbage they put on the floor tonight.

Klam
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Nostradumbass 18
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Nostradumbass 18
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January 22, 2022 10:02 pm

But 49ers beat the Packers tonight! Woot!

JackassCentral916
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January 22, 2022 10:09 pm
Reply to  Klam

That was a hell of a win!

Amonk81
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January 22, 2022 10:21 pm

Surprise. Haliburton is unlocked and plays great without Fox. The offense runs better. Holmes plays better.
No Fox = maximizing Haliburton and Holmes.

This stubborn ownership refuses to be mildly smart or forward thinking and realize that trading Fox makes Hali bette-offense better. I doubt the record would be worse without Fox. Even without trading for anyone.

So TRADE him you morons. You have to build a team with complimentary pieces. Fox doesn’t fit. The team improves in a multitude of ways sans Fox. Plus, you’ll get talent back.

AnybodyButBagley
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January 22, 2022 10:31 pm
Reply to  Amonk81

It is the death spiral that this organization is in. Hanging on to players that are good but do not fit the team. No assets in return for these good players that will eventually leave, Destroy the morale of all the players on the team because they see that nothing ever changes.

Amonk81
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January 22, 2022 10:56 pm

Sad thing is they actually have an opportunity to build something now. You’ve got Hali/Mitchell, whatever you get for Fox and others and a high draft pick.

Allow a GM to pick a coach who has a system to maximize Hali etc and bring in players who fit said system.

Simple but impossible for this ownership.

AnybodyButBagley
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January 22, 2022 11:02 pm
Reply to  Amonk81

Actually building a team is the opposite of anything that this organization has done. Fox and Haliburton are definitely NBA talent but they do not function well together on this roster.

I honestly do hope that they enter a real rebuild mode. GM has a plan. GM hires a coach that fits that plan. GM and coach build a roster with the intent of implementing a plan instead of simply gathering players.

KangzofLeon
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January 23, 2022 2:18 am
Reply to  Amonk81

I’m not against trading fox, but for everyone that is clamoring to get rid of Fox yesterday, have you guys considered that the return currently might simply not be worth trading for? It’s not like Fox and Hali can’t play together, this entire roster is a shitshow and neither of those 2 are the biggest problem, in my opinion. A smart team will not trade your best player (or 2nd best player) for a lackluster return. By all means, have your opinion, but maybe don’t assume that the front office isn’t aware that Fox doesn’t fit, but rather the deals that are out there just don’t make it worth it yet

If our goal is to improve the team in the long term, then we shouldn’t be making drastic and reactionary moves right now, a la Vivek’s shortsighted obsessions with the play-in, should we?

Last edited 2 years ago by KangzofLeon
Kingsguru21
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January 23, 2022 5:34 am
Reply to  KangzofLeon

If our goal is to improve the team in the long term, then we shouldn’t be making drastic and reactionary moves right now, a la Vivek’s shortsighted obsessions with the play-in, should we?

Arguments such as this will not make you popular around here, just a friendly heads up.

I mean, I agree with you, the level of frustration is on overdrive around here. And if trading Fox makes the pitchforks happy today, and that’s what the franchise is focused on, they will never improve.

RobHessing
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January 23, 2022 9:17 am
Reply to  Kingsguru21

Yes, fan opinion is what’s wrong with this organization. 16 years of franchise altering fan opinion.

Kingsguru21
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January 23, 2022 9:19 am
Reply to  RobHessing

If that’s your takeaway, okey dokey.

KangzofLeon
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January 23, 2022 2:03 pm
Reply to  RobHessing

I definitely do not blame fans in any way for the kangz being kangz. I’m only saying that we don’t need to make bad deals right now just to attempt to band-aid our deeper problems. If we legit could get someone like sabonis for fox, sure thing, but if we did almost nothing and just got a high pick for once, I’d be fine with that outcome.

Basically, don’t trade fox for a poor return because we are awful right now

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 9:34 am
Reply to  Kingsguru21

Eh. I don’t think there’s any evidence that the current McNair front office is prone to “drastic and reactionary” moves. Nor do I think the idea of trading Fox is especially reactionary. I don’t see many, if any, people clamoring for Fox to be traded regardless of the return. I think there’s a mild case of gaslighting going on. One can be in favor of trading Fox for entirely rational, non-reactionary reasons.
I also don’t see many trades being talked about that can really be considered short-sighted, since most of the big names that have been mentioned around here in conversations about trading Fox are young players on multi-year contracts. The most short-sighted rumor I’ve seen is the Covington one.
Fans of losing teams are always going to be in favor of proactivity. In my experience, what makes fans impatient isn’t really losing per se. It’s losing without evidence of a coherent planned path forward and periodic moves to advance the team along that path.

Kingsguru21
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January 23, 2022 9:57 am

I don’t think McNair and the basketball people in the FO are reactionary either. This isn’t their first rodeo, nor their last. They are NBA lifers, chances are all of them will end up in another FO or even two if they choose.

I never claimed McNair was reactionary though.

Ownership? That’s a different story, and I would suspect was some of the impetus behind moving Fox. Fox’s value won’t change much until significant sample sizes of shooting, defense and facilitation show improvement. We all know that. McNair and the FO knows that. Ownership doesn’t. This shopping of Fox around the NBA could easily be a FO exercise pointing out that trading Fox is not a panacea to the Kings problems like ownership probably thought it would be. Sometimes realizing there are no shortcuts to success is helpful.

Once ownership realizes that they cannot run the franchise with fans express approval, things will go a great deal smoother. In the end, it’s about reworking the roster which isn’t that tough to do if you have the authority to do so. Does McNair? We’ll see.

We talked about this the other day w/r/t Buddy. He’s tradeable. But for what? I’m hoping it’s for an expiring deal, and I think Cleveland is a great spot for him. But, we’ll see. Kings have other assets besides Fox, too. Barnes, Holmes, draft picks. But is that really on the table?

We’ll see. Proof is in the pudding. Don’t tell me, show me. I don’t give a shit what the franchise PR says at this point, and, frankly, I never have cared.

We’ll find out the answers to these questions (and others) in 2 1/2 weeks.

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 10:18 am

Very well said on several points. The plan as you said has to be coherent and should also lead toward sustainable success. I fear we are going to see some moves that push hard to achieve a low seeding playoff spot but also leaves the team with limited assets to improve further. A Covington like move could be an example of that. I also believe a sustainable path forward could or could not include Fox. The Kings right now are actually in better shape than teams like Phoenix, Charlotte and others were 4-5 years ago. So it can be done with a clear sustainable plan and a little luck always plays a part.

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 10:30 am
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

Heck, I’m not sure there has been a team in NBA history in a worse rebuild position than 2015 Nets. It took them 4 season to return to the playoffs and 6 to become among the favorites for a ring.

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 10:33 am

Yes an even better example than the ones I gave. They had nothing, no roster, no cap space and very little draft capital. I think it started with the Allen pick. Of course they ultimately went the buy a roster route that probably isn’t an option for the Kings.

Kingsguru21
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January 23, 2022 10:35 am
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

It really started when they hired Sean Marks in 2016.

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 10:37 am
Reply to  Kingsguru21

True and what a challenge he was given.

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 10:40 am
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

But they built a playoff team before that on under-valued talent (Russell) and late 1st and 2nd rounders (Allen, Harris, Dinwiddie, LeVert, etc.)

Now that I think about it, you might be able to draw some parallels between Lopez for Russell and Fox for Simmons. Though Simmons has had far more individual success than anyone else in that scenario.

Last edited 2 years ago by BestHyperboleEver
Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 10:46 am

A low level playoff team that wouldn’t threaten for a championship but yes your correct. I think the step toward respectability is always very achievable although the Kings can’t even do that but the step beyond that is a whole new challenge. A lot of teams are finding that out right now.

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 10:52 am
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

The Kings are going to be a low-level, non-threatening playoff team before they’re a championship contender. The assets that earned them that low-level playoff birth were used (through various mechanisms) to acquire Harden, and create space to sign Durant.

Last edited 2 years ago by BestHyperboleEver
Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 10:55 am

There’s no argument there, I just don’t know if Sacramento can snatch established superstar status players like Durant. I could be wrong. My point however the leap from credibility to championship contender is a big one.

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 10:59 am
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

Adding i think Utah. Denver and the Bucks are more likely models for the Kings to achieve than signing the superstar free agent.

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 11:02 am
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

Agreed.

Kingsguru21
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January 23, 2022 11:16 am
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

Agreed as well. Be surprised if the FO disagreed either, but that’s just my personal take on that.

Amonk81
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January 23, 2022 11:50 am

Thank you. Better way of stating my point. Definitely gas lighting

KangzofLeon
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January 23, 2022 1:59 pm

I totally agree. Just to be clear though, I hope you’re not referring to me as the perpetrator of mild gas lighting, since my only point was that we shouldn’t trade fox merely to alleviate our exasperation with this dismal franchise. I’m not against trading him, but it’s not like we cannot trade him down the road.

In terms of why not trade him prior to signing him to the max, I think it’s too far gone to rely on hindsight. Fox was by far our most talented player at that time and last season was offensively pretty awesome. Obviously, we have to take into account that we are not key players in free agency as well

That’s all. We don’t have to do it now if it doesn’t make sense long term. Not trying to put anyone down or blame fans for being frustrated. Afterall, I’m a proponent of tanking myself

Last edited 2 years ago by KangzofLeon
Amonk81
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January 23, 2022 11:48 am
Reply to  Kingsguru21

I disagree with your point and never appreciate your snarky tone and attack of people’s valid opinions.

A hell of a lot more in the column to support blowing it up than sticking with this non plan.

Kingsguru21
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January 23, 2022 1:20 pm
Reply to  Amonk81

Assuming for a moment you aren’t getting Ben Simmons in a straight up deal, what do you consider an acceptable deal for De’Aaron Fox at this point?

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 1:29 pm
Reply to  Kingsguru21

Before the Knicks made the Reddish deal, I thought Toppin, Burks, and two first rounders might work.

Claystreet
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January 23, 2022 9:31 am
Reply to  KangzofLeon

You could be right but I’m confused. Why do people keep saying Fox is the best player on this team? People outside Sacramento know this isn’t true. Hali is by far the better player and he’s only in his second year. He will learn when to be aggressive and when he does, the stat line will be more than what we are seeing now which is consistently a double double in points and assists and there will be Wins because he makes people around him better. Fox is a good scorer, sometimes. Other than that, I’m not sure what he does well. He gets assists but doesn’t seem to make anyone better and certainly hasn’t helped the team win. Neither has Hali right? Hali is in his second year and is already showing signs he can lead a team and absolutely help them win. If Monte can’t find a trade to bring back value for Fox, he shouldn’t be an NBA GM.

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 9:54 am
Reply to  Claystreet

I think, based on the fact that he’s played at a relatively high level for longer, one could argue that Fox is the best player on the roster. But if we’re talking about THIS season, Haliburton has been far and away the better player. By pretty much all “All-in” statistics, Haliburton is well on his way to putting up a better season than Fox ever has. Oddly, I think many here are still underrating just how good Haliburton has been this year.

KangzofLeon
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January 23, 2022 3:51 pm
Reply to  Claystreet

I would say fox is our most talented player still, even if Hali is the better overall player. I think a lot of people do shortsell fox’s abilities, but he is certainly no star as of now

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 5:42 pm
Reply to  KangzofLeon

I’m not sure how to square this. In what way is Fox more talented if Hali is “the better overall player” despite being younger and less experienced? How are we defining “talent?” And what good is that “talent” if it doesn’t express itself in terms of impact on the game?

KangzofLeon
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January 23, 2022 5:47 pm

I get what you mean, but I think they are just very different types of players. I say Hali is the better overall player because his skill set fits in better with most teams’ needs. He is more efficient. That’s how I’m defining his status as “better overall.”

On the other hand, I think Fox still has the higher overall ceiling and absolutely is the better shot creator for himself. He has better handles, a lot better finishing at the rim. Again, I’m comparing them right now, as I realize Hali is only in his 2nd year and is looking great. This is why I say the two of them can definitely gel together if given the right surrounding cast.

Basically, they complement each other. I’m also not even ready to say Hali is the better player just yet, but I’m definitely leaning that way. Neither of them are the biggest issues with this team to me, though, as you can almost never be a good defense with buddy and bagley on your team

If you have to build around one of them, sure, I’ll go with Hali. I’m just not as down on Fox as some others might be, especially in the context of this team’s struggles

Last edited 2 years ago by KangzofLeon
BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 7:57 pm
Reply to  KangzofLeon

I think they complement each other fine and I’m not down on Fox at all. Unless thinking his likely outcome is closer to a very good (top 30-50) player than star (top 20, say) is being down on him. That said, I agree that Fox is clearly better at creating shots for himself in 1v1 situations. What I’m not sure of is that Fox is better at creating high quality shots overall within the team concept (whether for himself or for his teammates). The cynic in me, because I’ve found it’s often the case in conversations about player potential, says that “high ceiling” is often just a proxy for “run and jump athleticism.” Personally, I think Haliburton’s advantage in BBIQ raises his ceiling more than Fox’s advantage in athleticism.

But, to bring it back to the top, there’s no reason the Kings have to choose between them. Their skillsets are complementary enough and Haliburton’s length allows him to defend bigger guards. IF I were deciding between trading one or the other, I’d trade Fox. But that doesn’t mean I think that’s the only potentially fruitful path forward.

KangzofLeon
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January 23, 2022 11:37 pm

Totally! I agree also that the whole “higher ceiling” concept is often lazily tied to athleticism. Hali is indeed higher IQ, the better team playmaker, shooter (and attitude?). They both somewhat lack in defense as of now, but Hali has a bit better instincts I’d say

RikSmits
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January 23, 2022 9:33 am
Reply to  KangzofLeon

The problem with that premise is that the return on Fox could have been great prior to signing him to the max.

Now, you are ata situation where his value is more or less fixed, with a bit of bandwith to eitrher side if he plays better or worse. The league probably knows what Fox is worth by now, and a hot streak of half a season won’t change that.

Now if your point is that we’ll have to eat some years off of his contract, before his return will be good, you have no argument from me. But then you also have to take into account the costs of keeping him for these years.

Amonk81
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January 23, 2022 11:56 am
Reply to  RikSmits

And as I stated prior, The Kings will be as good or better even if they just cut Fox.

Honestly, do you think they’d lose anymore games without Fox?

Their O is better w Hali. Their D is same or better. In fact, I believe the numbers show that. Hali is better wout Fox. Holmes is better.

Fox is the most talented player who doesn’t fit. He’s very Westbrook without D.

KangzofLeon
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January 23, 2022 5:43 pm
Reply to  Amonk81

he’s also more efficient than Westbrook, imo. Also I haven’t seen Russ play much good defense lately

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 8:05 pm
Reply to  KangzofLeon

Westbrook age 24 TS% = .532
Fox age 24 TS% (so far) = .532

Westbrook career TS% = .527
Fox career TS% = .539

That said, I don’t think they’re particularly comparable players. Except in that their teams would probably generally be better off if they shaved off a bit of USG and improved their shot selection.

KangzofLeon
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January 23, 2022 11:40 pm

oh yeah, their shooting numbers are very similar. But I think what we’re seeing with Russ on the Lakers this year is that he is a horrendous off ball player, which Fox actually is strangely better in that regard (considering he’s not very good at it either.) I don’t have the stats on either of their off ball contributions to the team, but you could probably provide that

KangzofLeon
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January 23, 2022 5:54 pm
Reply to  RikSmits

I sort of said this in a different post, but I don’t fault this FO for signing Fox to the max and not trading him before. He was looking like the best player we’ve had since Boogie. And yeah, my argument is basically that there’s no need to rush into a bad deal now. We can always trade him later if it improves our return due to less yrs on his contract/Fox’s improvement, etc

Personally, I’d have tanked 2 or 3 years ago and not picked Bagley, but yeah…

Amonk81
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January 23, 2022 11:46 am
Reply to  KangzofLeon

i assume that McNair etc know Fox doesn’t fit, and he’s gonna bring the most back but Vivek seems to have a mandate of keeping Fox-building around him. Flawed idea number 1 of many.

And what is it with this Kings aren’t trading cause they can’t get value?. Bullshit excuse. Of course they can get something. It’s a hell of a lot more likely than the Kings FO is smart and waiting.

And rash? Blowing this thing up is the way. You think hanging in and waiting is the way? That’s what they e been doing. Look how awesome they are.

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 1:13 pm
Reply to  KangzofLeon

Yeah there’s no reason to compare Fox and Haliburton and then somehow determine one has to go. I’m not against trading Fox but as you said the return has to be substantial. The Kings can certainly build a quality product with or without Fox.

Bluejohn
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January 23, 2022 3:02 pm
Reply to  KangzofLeon

I get what you’re saying and it’s a nice piece of common sense. I read most of the comments in most of the posts and for the most part I don’t see much weight being put on the “Get rid of Fox for a handful of magic beans or whatever the basketball equivalent is”

I think it may be an unstated but understood that the reason for trading Fox is that is he has the most value towards bring back a player or players that will improve the team more than keeping him will.

The team is in a similar position to what it was in when it came to trading Cuz. He was our best player but it had become clear that he wasn’t going to add enough value to take the Kings to the playoffs.

IMO the semi insane reactions you are seeing in some of the comments is not that these fans have lost their minds but that they have no faith in the front office to actually secure value that will significantly improve the KANGZs .

After watching Hali play with Fox out I believe we have the lead guard of the future. I’m so tired of watching Fox bring the ball up the court while singing Skip to my Lou that I’m open to trading the “fastest player in the league” only……..only if the team can bring more value than they sent out.

Whether our FO/ownership can do that or not is making me kind of CRAZY.

KangzofLeon
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January 23, 2022 5:59 pm
Reply to  Bluejohn

totally agree with you. This FO has shown no sign of competence that would merit trust from the fanbase. However, I always believed that cleaning up Vlade (and Vivek’s) mess was a 3 – 5 year process at the least. They set us back a decade or so haha. Add onto this arduous task the fact that Vivek refuses to allow tanking, you’re likely going to need a couple more years in order to become relevant

Also, I might take the magic beans deal depending on what they do ;p

Last edited 2 years ago by KangzofLeon
BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 8:12 pm
Reply to  KangzofLeon

I think this overstates Vlade’s mess. He didn’t build a good team, but by the time Monte took over, most of his mistakes were gone. Monte had all his picks plus a cache of 2nd rounders, no real albatross contracts (the worst being Hield, who I don’t think is all that albatross-y), and Fox still on his rookie deal. He certainly didn’t walk into riches, but it wasn’t a complete disaster. Recent GM’s have walked into worse situations and starting creating results quickly.

KangzofLeon
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January 23, 2022 11:32 pm

you’re right, which is why the greater culprit is the owner himself who has seemingly forced the franchise into a perennial purgatorial state by refusing to tank and/or trade for assets and young players. I can’t read Monte’s mind, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he would have gone a much different route in order to accumulate assets and build for the future in lieu of the lofty play-in dream

Last edited 2 years ago by KangzofLeon
Claystreet
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January 23, 2022 9:21 am
Reply to  Amonk81

Exactly! I like Fox but the team and Hali specifically are better without him.

AnybodyButBagley
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January 22, 2022 10:24 pm

I was in Golden One Center tonight for an event other than the Kangz.

More people in the building than any Kangz game I have been to in the last three years.

Amonk81
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January 22, 2022 10:59 pm

Must have been tens of people.

AnybodyButBagley
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January 22, 2022 11:04 pm
Reply to  Amonk81

Actually had to stand in line a few times. It was a good thing to see. Reminder of what decent entertainment will bring,

RikSmits
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January 22, 2022 10:58 pm

Thanks Mirann.

I remember when people were full of wonder about the “stacking days” quote. How’s that going?

Congrats on the 49ers win!

I just find it funny how people are flexing about beating Rodgers with a D led by – checks notes – Nick Bosa.

Gregoryl
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January 23, 2022 12:19 am
Reply to  RikSmits

Don’t worry all, defensive guru Rico Hines will have this all figured out by next game!

rockbottom
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January 23, 2022 4:52 am
Reply to  Gregoryl

Kings hired Longbardi and Christi to be defensive gurus and seems to be working similar to past defensive hires !

Jack
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January 23, 2022 7:18 am
Reply to  RikSmits

” Offense wins games, Defense wins championshps”

MidtownMike
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January 23, 2022 10:50 am
Reply to  Jack

Like the Chiefs over the niners…

It’s a very much outdated statement in modern NFL football.

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 11:00 am
Reply to  MidtownMike

It has always been more of a motivational axiom for coaches to rally the team to work hard on the less glamorous side of the court/field. I mean, even the most cursory glance tells you it’s nonsense since you have to win games in order to win championships.

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 11:16 am

That’s so true but in baseball and I mean the playoffs, pitching wins championships.

rockbottom
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January 23, 2022 11:18 am
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

I thought the team with the most runs wins ( offense ) ?

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 11:26 am
Reply to  rockbottom

The team with the most runs is determined by both offense and defense.

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 11:30 am

True but when you’re sitting there with Bob Gibson on the mound with a 1.12 era your offensive strategy might be a little different.

Kingsguru21
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January 23, 2022 12:23 pm
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

Yet the Tiggers won the ‘chip in ’68. Just sayin’.

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 1:09 pm
Reply to  Kingsguru21

With Mickey Lolich who won 3 games as a starter in that series thus my point that depth is far less important that front end starters. I might had that team also had Denny McClain a 31 game winner.

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 1:59 pm
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

It’s worth pointing out that there were a lot of runs scored in that World Series. An average of 8.7 per game total. During the regular season that year, teams combined for an average of 6.84 (3.42 per team) runs per game.

In the regular season, the Tigers had the #2 offense and #2 defense. The Cardinals had the #1 defense and #6 offense.

Last edited 2 years ago by BestHyperboleEver
Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 2:14 pm

I think you know better that’s a very misleading stat and I mean very. Bob Gibson pitched two complete games and gave up 0 an 1 run. Lolich gave up 1 run, 1 run, and 3 runs respectively. In the game Denny McClain won he gave up 1 run. So in the four wins for Detroit, 2 starters gave up a total of 6 runs. Nuff said.

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 2:43 pm
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

I might add as Tampa might be making a comeback. In game 7 Lolich had a shut out with two outs in 9th when Mike Shannon homered. That was a cardinal lineup that featured Lou Brock, Curt Flood, Orlando Cepada and Roger Maris.

Kingsguru21
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January 23, 2022 2:08 pm
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

McClain did, in fact, win 31 games in 1968. He also threw 336 innings in 41 starts. It’s amazing that guy didn’t blow out his arm earlier in his career with that kinda workload.

Last edited 2 years ago by Kingsguru21
Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 2:18 pm
Reply to  Kingsguru21

Something’s different today. I can’t figure it out. They had 4 man rotations that went much longer than today and arm trouble didn’t seem to be as prevalent although Sandy Koufax retired in the prime of his career with arm problems. Think about this Juan Marichal and Warren Spahn had a 1-0 pitching dual that went 15 innings and both pitched the entire game. Incredible.

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 2:41 pm
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

Players are generally playing more and specializing earlier, throwing off-speed stuff earlier and more often, and throwing at max effort a lot more these days. They’re also throwing a lot more high-velocity rotational pitches.

It’s also worth noting that pitchers, in general, just throw a lot harder these days. I read an article that used film frame rate to compare pitching speeds that determined (obviously this is imperfect) that Gibson’s fastball was generally around 92MPH. The fastest measured fastball by Koufax was 93.something MPH.

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 2:48 pm

Thats good stuff and might explain some of it but players take care of themselves much better today and are generally more fit. It’s still very puzzling. I only used to let my youth pitchers on the traveling team pitch one game a week. I didn’t worry that much about pitch count theorizing that stopping and starting over a series of games hurt the arm but I really don’t know.

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 3:10 pm
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

Yeah, I can’t say I really have the answers. I haven’t done or spent the time to pour over the research. I’m just theorizing based on what makes sense to me. I do think that there’s only so much that “taking care of themselves” can do. There’s a limit to how much force and torque the pieces of the human body can handle. Primarily, I would say it’s repetitive use injuries (exacerbated by the type of use). Overhead sports (baseball, tennis, swimming) are just brutal on the shoulders and arms. The wear and tear starting at younger ages and playing throughout the year, instead of playing seasonally and even transitioning to other sports that enable those specialized movement muscles/tendons/ligaments to rest a bit while other supporting structures strengthen.

I haven’t coached much baseball beyond local camps, but I’ve always thought that I would try to get pitchers lots of rest and focus on the single arm motion pitches that utilize grip and pressure to achieve movement with fastball arm action. A simple 4-seam, 2-seam, change-up arsenal is plenty until the body is more developed IMO. Of course, I would also recommend not playing nearly year-round like tons of kids do these days.

Again, that’s all just my subjective, barely-educated take.

Last edited 2 years ago by BestHyperboleEver
Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 3:16 pm

The other thing is that the kids that pitched are often the best players so when they weren’t pitching they are playing shortstop or some position where they are still using their arms. I tried to be cognizant of that but when you’re not looking they playing catch with their friends. I used to play a little league game and then go home and play baseball with a tennis ball against the garage or whiffle ball. Also these seasons go on all year. Who knows. I certainly don’t

Kingsguru21
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January 23, 2022 11:20 am
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

It’s the ability to hit high level pitching is what really determines the outcome of MLB ‘s Red Robin showcase.

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 11:25 am
Reply to  Kingsguru21

That’s true but what happens in the regular season teams get deep into their starting pitching a good hitters become great hitters and not so good hitters become decent hitters. Typically in the baseball playoffs, teams don’t get that deep into their starting staffs so a big 3 at the front end of a staff can dominate a short series. Lookup Seaver, Matlock, and Koosman what they did for the Mets. I will however say this things are changing with all the new metrics and the use of bullpens and bullpen games. Still however pitching it’s much more exposed in the playoffs than regular season. Depth isn’t as important as strength at the top.

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 11:49 am
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

That doesn’t really mean that pitching wins Championships. Teams have to be successful on both sides to win a Championship. The ability to score runs is just as important as the ability to prevent runs. The pitching gets better in the playoffs, certainly. So teams generally need better offenses to score. The ‘Mazing Mets are a really extreme example. And, of course, it’s worth pointing out those teams only won one underdog WS. And Seaver, easily the best of their pitchers, was 2-1 with a 4.09 ERA in the playoffs. He really only pitched one good game in those ’69 playoffs.
Ultimately, in general, teams without high level starting pitchers AND teams without quality hitting depth get exposed. Of course, we’re talking about small sample sizes, so there’s always the chance Barry Zito goes out throws a great game or Pat Borders doubles his BA in the World Series. But if we’re going to take the full sample into consideration, as will other sports, scoring runs is just as important as preventing them in the playoffs just as it is in the regular season.

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 12:13 pm

Teams have to be competent on both offense and pitching. In the playoffs the preponderance of the strength produces the best results when it’s starting pitching.

rockbottom
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January 23, 2022 11:17 am

Also, score the most points which is offense !

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 11:56 am
Reply to  rockbottom

Nope. “Most” is a relative term that is impacted just as much by preventing points as it is by scoring points. A team that scores 90 points can still win a game and a team that scores, let’s say, 131 and 127 in consecutive games can still lose both of those games. Heck, you don’t have to look any further than the fact that the Kings are scoring the 10th most points per game in the NBA this season to know there’s more to winning than scoring a lot.

ajonez81
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January 23, 2022 8:27 am

Didn’t watch any of game but I do enjoy the comic relief recaps, one thing I’ve noticed for many years with Kings is that teams play good enough to beat them, not even their best, most teams rest while beating Kings so they are even worse than we think.
I love the efficiency of Tyrese, he just needs to play tougher and get to FT line more. The team is better off with him in and Fox out. Fox is so inefficient and ineffective overall, he claims to be a scorer, but he’s not even efficient or prolific at that, nowhere near a max guy.

Last edited 2 years ago by ajonez81
BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 8:59 am

Good news! As the Kings careen towards a high pick, the top of the draft just got a little deeper with the addition of Shaedon Sharpe. Who, incidentally, could be a pretty ideal fit next to Hali if the team were looking for one.

Kingsguru21
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January 23, 2022 9:24 am

Do I love Hali? Yes, I do. But he’s not good enough to be considered franchise material quite yet. Thus, who fits well with him is not much of a concern and for me no concern at all.

Focus on getting more talent, improving your culture and player development first. This franchise puts the cart way too often in front of the horse as is. This type of thinking is an example of it.

That said, if you think Sharpe is the best player for you, take him. Just don’t do it because you think he fits with Haliburton as a primary reason.

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 9:46 am
Reply to  Kingsguru21

Of course, I never said fit with Hali is the primary reason to draft him. That said, I think it’s silly NOT to consider fit to some degree. Fit enables the optimization of talent. Now, that doesn’t mean it’s high up the list of priorities. But it is and should be part of the discussion. Less about fit with the current personnel specifically than about fit with the future vision of the roster/team.
Personally, FIT is more of a driver of what I do with the current roster than how I would draft. One of the best things about Hali is that he is theoretically a good fit with pretty much anyone. Having versatile players on the roster enable you to truly, comfortable draft whoever you think is the best talent (assuming one on the board stands out as THE BEST talent, which is far less common than many commenters that shout “BPA” ad nauseam would have you believe).

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 10:23 am

I don’t necessarily buy the FIT driver. Get the right type of players and fit will happen organically. As you said Haliburton will be a good fit on any roster.

Kingsguru21
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January 23, 2022 10:58 am
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

I agree about the FIT piece as well. Although I do agree on BHE’s point that fit is an important consideration for the current roster more than when drafting.

And w/r/t Haliburton, I think his versatility is a bit of a blessing and curse. We see a great deal of both consistently and this franchise, as always, has to figure out the best use of his versatility so to maximize it. Which very much remains to be seen.

The fact there is even consistent discussion about whether Fox or Haliburton is more valuable is a huge problem in why the Kings aren’t better consistently.

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 11:00 am
Reply to  Kingsguru21

Fair and good points.

Kingsguru21
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January 23, 2022 11:50 am

Of course, I never said fit with Hali is the primary reason to draft him. That said, I think it’s silly NOT to consider fit to some degree. Fit enables the optimization of talent. 

No, you didn’t say that. And I agree on the next two lines.

My biggest issue at this point is that Haliburton is a core piece. IMO, he is not that yet. Therefore roster construction around Hali is very low on my list of the priorities.

It’s in many ways mirroring what has went wrong with Fox in the past. I would like to see these guys be put into a position to succeed, not be labeled as a savior when they aren’t really that.

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 12:08 pm
Reply to  Kingsguru21

I don’t think anybody is a core piece in terms of a player you MUST hold onto and build around. I’m not talking about Haliburton as a savior. The reason I prefer Haliburton, as I said, is his malleability. When talking about non-elite players, I think that type of versatility is vital. You don’t hold onto Haliburton because he’s the savior. You hold onto him because his versatility and contract mean he’s easier to slot in next to whatever archetype of elite player you may find yourself with an opportunity to acquire either in trade, through the draft, or through surprising development. If Davion Mitchell makes a (mind-blowing) leap to stardom, Haliburton could slot in next to him just as easily as he could if somehow the opportunity to acquire Beal presents itself. And if both were to magically happen, his contract means it isn’t a huge deal if he shifts to a 6th man slot.
So, while I don’t have any King on the untouchable list, if I were creating a ranked list of players I would most like to hold onto, Haliburton would be at the top of that list due to his combination of skill, versatility, contract, and, IMO, leadership qualities.

Last edited 2 years ago by BestHyperboleEver
Kingsguru21
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January 23, 2022 1:17 pm

I wasn’t talking about you, I meant the franchise. Obviously making that clear because it really wasn’t in the comment you responded to.

As far as your comment, I agree with it. But the doom and gloom aside on here, other traditional media, the interwebs as a whole and wherever else, I think we can agree none of it matters if there isn’t fundamental change in how things operate at 1 David J Stern Way.

And that starts with recognizing what players are and aren’t IMO.

Last edited 2 years ago by Kingsguru21
Claystreet
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January 23, 2022 9:49 am
Reply to  Kingsguru21

Hmm, I used to kind of respect you. I may be a bit biased because I’ve seen Hali as a special player before the Kings drafted him but all he’s done so far is show he can consistently get a double double in points and assists while getting to his spots with ease and genuinely making those around him better especially any big. If you don’t build around a guy who eventually in the very near future can get you 20 and 10 every night while making everyone around him better and being a leader, who do you build around?

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 10:00 am
Reply to  Claystreet

I think it’s fair to say nobody on the Kings has proven to be “Franchise” material yet. I mean, that’s rarified air. The number of players worth completely building your team building strategy around are few and far between. As I mention above, the reasons I personally usually lean towards keeping Haliburton over other players are his combination of age, talent, maturity, and VERSATILITY. It’s the last one that puts him above Fox IMO. Players like Haliburton are easy to build with (notice, I didn’t say “build around.”) because they don’t force your hand at any other position.

Claystreet
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January 23, 2022 11:43 am

I agree with this. That said, how many players in NBA history have averaged 20 points and 10 assists? Not that Tyrese has done that but I believe it’s safe to say barring injury or something else out of left field that he will very soon. In my opinion 20 and 10 as a point guard makes a player franchise material. So, is he franchise material right now? No, he is not. Will he be very soon especially without Fox in his way? In my opinion, it’s a pretty safe bet. He’s also 21 years old and only in his sophomore season. He’s smart and he already knows how to get others involved. He’s exceptionally efficient. I wouldn’t sign him to a max deal right now but they don’t need to so that’s moot. Are the Kings going to draft a player better than Hali or trade for a player better? I believe that is highly doubtful. Back to your point, perhaps if you’re the Kings you don’t build around anyone as that has never worked. Building to fit seems a better strategy regardless of situation. Building a roster to fit with Hali would be highly beneficial. Building around Fox on the other hand has already proven faulty, not that he is the problem in Kangz land. And now as I babble on, I realize none of this matters because the organization lacks the fortitude, mental or otherwise to make any improvements to the roster. Also, I must come off as a Fox hater but honestly, I really like him, I just don’t think he fits with this organization. I say organization rather than team because in my opinion he needs much more structure than he will ever see in Sacramento. On the right team he will flourish. Tyrese has shown a high level of mental acuity and again is already making those around him better. If there is a player in the NBA who can handle the dumbassitude of this organization it would be him. Well okay, there are a few others that will never don a Kings jersey but as far as players in Kings purple, Tyrese may be the best to be had. If you believe he will be a 20 and 10 point guard and make those around him better as well as develop into a good leader, do you believe it is reasonable to assume he will be franchise material in the near future? If the answer is yes, as a quality, goal oriented organization, you make the moves to fit a team with or around him ASAP. If the answer is no, you might Vivek.

SelecaoKOJ
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January 23, 2022 9:52 am

It seems Monte is outsmarting himself in this game of chess. If he waits until the 10th to make any significant trade. it won’t matter who he trades for. This team will probably be 15-16 games under .500. The next 9 games look brutal. I don’t see more than 2-3 wins.

Blazers and Pels don’t seem to be in tank mode. Spurs never tank.

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 9:55 am
Reply to  SelecaoKOJ

Yeah, I’m kinda hoping the Kings are too far out by the deadline for anyone to consider the play-in a viable goal.

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 10:25 am

Agree making moves now to achieve a play-in spot is a suckers trade.

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 10:29 am
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

I will add the goal of making moves shouldn’t be to get better now although if it happens fine but it should be to develop a sustainable model that leads toward competing for a championship. A move like the Covington move or for Tobias Harris leads to a dead end IMO.

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 10:36 am
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

I agree. I think we often get into false dichotomy territory when we talk about improving team and a full rebuild. There are moves that can both potentially improve the team now AND better position us for the future. That can include moves like exchanging players for similar players with more complementary skillsets (i.e. Fox for Simmons, IMO), acquiring good but overpaid players that come with additional assets from teams looking to create cap space (i.e. Hayward), etc.
I’m not a fan of acquiring Harris, but he could fit into that second category if he were to come with pick(s) and/or young players.

Last edited 2 years ago by BestHyperboleEver
Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 10:43 am

Theoretically yes but I think you have to have a little more cap space. Then pick up a serviceable bad contract in exchange for a young player and draft capital and the two can happen simultaneously. Yes Fox for Simmons straight across but nothing I’ve read to this point indicates Philly will entertain that. I did however say previously that Philadelphia is posturing and the actual market for Simmons isn’t anywhere near what they’ve been peddling. It could be as we approach February 15th, Fox might look pretty good to them.

BestHyperboleEver
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January 23, 2022 10:47 am
Reply to  Kings-Rebuild

Yeah, I was mostly using Fox for Simmons as an example of swapping a player for another in the same general tier (talent, age, contract, etc.) but with a skillset that may be more complementary to your remaining roster.

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 10:49 am

I got your point but when I saw Simmons it made me comment on that as a separate issue.

Chippy23152
Chippy23152
January 23, 2022 10:20 am

The only ones thinking the play-in viable is the FO. This team is NOT good. They need a lot more than Simmons or Sabonis to turn it around. I do like Fox but the team has never won with him. If trading him brings back talent, they should definitely consider it.

Kings-Rebuild
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January 23, 2022 10:36 am
Reply to  Chippy23152

Oh they can make some moves and achieve a playin spot but at what price. It’s fools gold to make a playin spot the objective.

Bluejohn
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January 23, 2022 3:53 pm

Mirann I’m becoming a huge fan. Your writing gets better in each summary and it started from a high point.

IMO this was one if not the best thread so far this season. Loved the baseball stuff.

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