The Athletic’s Shams Charania sparked a string of Ben Simmons trade rumors following his Inside Pass column on Tuesday. According to Charania’s sources, the 76ers are looking for an “All-Star-caliber player” if they’re going to move on from Simmons, and as an asking price, that makes a lot of sense. Despite his obvious warts, Simmons is a three-time All-Star and the 76ers are NBA Finals contenders. They can’t afford to take a step-back in the middle of Joel Embiid’s prime. But just because the 76ers are asking for an All-Star-caliber player in return doesn’t mean they are going to get one.
Independent (via Substack) veteran NBA reporter Marc Stein followed up Charania’s Ben Simmons news with a list of teams that have expressed interest in acquiring the Australian guard/forward, and the Kings were on that list.
Our pal Jason Anderson from the Sacramento Bee did a little digging of his own and dropped a column on Wednesday morning detailing what the Kings would need to do to satisfy Philadelphia’s demands:
Sacramento would probably be willing to offer a package that includes Buddy Hield, Marvin Bagley III and one or more future first-round draft picks. One league source recently told The Sacramento Bee the Kings would have to send a minimum of three first-round picks to the 76ers in a trade constructed around Hield and Bagley. Another source said the 76ers wouldn’t be interested unless Fox or Haliburton were included in the trade, but Hield’s elite 3-point shooting and Bagley’s unrealized potential could be appealing if a better deal doesn’t materialize.
Anderson put to paper what we probably could have speculated: If the Kings aren’t trading Fox or Haliburton, and they really shouldn’t, the 76ers are going to need a ton of draft compensation to fill the talent gap.
There is still a long way to go before any Ben Simmons trade materializes, but it’s encouraging to see the Kings in the mix, and as Anderson notes, the 76ers are aiming high early, as they should. Daryl Morey is doing his job in trying to maximize the return for a former franchise player, but if he doesn’t get it, I’m sure he’ll continue the dialogue with his former protégé and Sacramento Kings General Manager, Monte McNair.
It’s also worth noting that while “three first-round picks” sounds like a high asking price, various pick protections, pick swaps, and other draft compensation tricks can be utilized to make the reality of losing those “three first-round picks” less damaging than it sounds.
If Anderson is right when he says that the Kings “would probably be willing to offer a package that includes Buddy Hield, Marvin Bagley III and one or more future first-round draft picks” than the two sides might not be as far off as it appears. The problem is that draft compensation doesn’t do much for the 76ers’ title dreams, so a deal in this mold is likely contingent on Philadelphia lining up a second trade where they could use those draft picks to acquire more win-now talent.
If Anderson’s second source is more accurate, and the Kings cannot land Ben Simmons without dealing De’Aaron Fox or Tyrese Haliburton, that probably marks the end of Morey and McNair’s trade negotiations.
3 first round picks is absolutely insane. Sounds like a Vlade move…
Have to give up something to change. We can run it back and keep the streak alive.
Ya things have to change but most teams do this through the draft. If we give up 3 first round picks, we should riot.
Draft is not going to do it. Especially with the Kings draft history.
Especially with this gunning for meaningless play in philosophy Vivek so desperately desired
I’m guessing Vivek’s proclivity for the 8th seed / play in will lead us to trading the 9th pick.
Depending on who’s available & what it’s traded for, that wouldn’t necessarily be bad.
Desired is past tense. He is probably setting the same goal for the next decade.
The Kings got Fox & Hali thru the draft.
4 years apart and neither, as of yet, are tentpoles. You have to do significantly better than that if you’re going to focus on building entirely through the draft.
I wasn’t advocating building entirely thru the draft. I don’t think that’s doable for the Kings. I was just pointing out the Kings got some nice players thru the draft.
The biggest challenge with building through the draft is that you have to hit on multiple picks to some degree (and on a couple to great degree) in relatively quick succession.
Like, for example, Luka Doncic in 2018.
Not Monte’s fault, but the Kings have a truly horrific draft record. Whether it be Marvin, JJ and Giles, Etc we’ve managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory with some amazing regularity.
Two good players out of their last 200 hundred opportunities.
WINNING!!!!!
TBF the history doesn’t matter bc those decision-makers are gone. The person making the picks is 1-0 so far. But I agree that draft picks are often overrated, especially in the Kangz’s typical 7-10 range.
how is the pre-McNair draft history relevant?
Who is the ass hat who downvoted this? OK, go ahead and defend any Kings pick in the last decade not named Cousins, Fox or Haliburton ¦ plus bonus points for explaining why it was a good idea to pass up Luka for Bagley. Go ahead, I’ll wait.
Here’s the gamble: This year’s #9 + 2 mid first rounders.
I believe the Kings do make the playoffs with Simmons, so those other two aren’t going to be lottery picks.
Buddy + Bagley + #9 + 2 ~16-20 picks sounds pretty fair in my opinion.
Buddy, Bags and our 2022 1st for Ben Simmons. Who says no???
Philadelphia it appears.
Touche!
Philly says no. They want an all star- Buddy or MB3 is an all star????
Most teams yes¦ this team is a paradox wrapped in an enigma. Here is a Schrödinger’s cat scenario for you.
If we pick, based on history, we aren’t going to get true value of those picks. So are those picks even worth as much here as they are in philly?
I for one would much rather have the known value bruises and all. Rather than another spin of the lotto wheel of draft picks in sac.
If a deal includes Fox, barring something entirely one-sided in Sacramento’s favor, I pass. And I agree that three first-rounders is just too much for a guy who has completely soured on he aspect of the game that involves making baskets. He’s a great player, and even great players have flaws, but his is not one that can be hidden.
I’d be interested in something like Bagley/Hield and up to two first-rounders, but the fine print would need to be read.
It would already be a bit one-sided, since Simmons is the better player. But if you could get Simmons plus a little something, I’m not sure what would stop McNair from pulling the trigger.
Agreed. I would trade Fox for Ben straight up. Add filler to get one of Maxey/Thybulle/Milton.
Fox is the kind of PG the Sixers are craving.
I would give Tyrese the reigns of the team and give Ben the Bam/Draymond role.
Same. Make Hali your Curry, Buddy your Klay, Simmons your Green, and Barnes your Barnes. Swing for the fences with the #9 pick and hope for the best.
Agree 100%
Hell no. If anything we move Fox off the ball. Fox is giving these dudes hell this year. Coming off a 25 point season. I fully expect him to become an unstoppable 2 guard. And find a way to get Lonzo.
Hali
Fox
Barnes
Simmons
Holmes
Now this i can get down with! I want to wear my Fox jersey at a playoff game!
What kinda Walmart brand Avengers is this?
It’s about roles and team makeup not necessarily the comparison to future hall of famers.
The Vivengers!
Agree almost 100%, but I’d like to make Barnes someone else’s team’s Barnes.
I would, too. It is the type of aggressive move that would radically transform the franchise, with a team built around Haliburton, Simmons and the #9 pick. A team that can be developed into one that meets the demands of today’s NBA.
Fox and Bagley for Simmons would not upset me one bit.
I’m not a fan of Fox, but I wouldn’t include him in a Simmons trade. If you’re willing to trade Fox, I think you can do better than Simmons.
For example?
Someone who can shoot
Yes, clearly the weakness on this team is offense.
I just wouldn’t trade fox or Halliburton for him
I’d say that Siakam would be the most obvious example right now.
Can’t agree on this one.
I like Siakam, but Simmons is a more impactful player overall.
I don’t think the Kings have enough assets to land Simmons without a third team being involved. What good are picks and Bagley to the Sixers?
I also wanted to give a shout out to Jason Anderson for the work he’s been putting in. He’s put out a lot more tidbits than any of the other beat-writers and has constantly been breaking the various players coming into workout for the draft.
Simmons makes a lot of sense for the Kings. He’s a flawed, but still elite player.
He’s very good, but I wouldn’t call him elite due to his flaws.
How about some term like “E-lite”?
(pronounced “eee-LIGHT”)
If he’s in a situation where he’s asked to be a primary or secondary scorer, not elite. If he’s in the right situation, then he’s elite. He certainly has some elite skills that are not that hard to maximize.
He would be the closest thing to an elite player the Kings have.
That’s true right now, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Fox is better than him long-term (& I think there’s a chance that Hali could be better long-term).
Maybe. But Simmons is better now and is only 1 year older than Fox. I don’t think there is much reason to think Fox’s growth curve has more potential than Simmons’.
Plus one, the thing that worries me about Fox long term is is speed and explosiveness. It is elite right now and gives him a excellent advantage off the dribble, but he is a John Wall/Derrick Rose injury away from being mediocre.
And there was a lot of talk this season about how he was worn down from carrying the load.
That style of charging into the defense all game long can’t be a long term strategy, no matter how good he is at it.
Agreed, that type of play also wore down DWade until he got help from LBJ and Bosh. The only guy I can think of that still seems to excel with that kind of play is Westbrook, but he’s built like a brick shithouse.
I seriously worry about Fox being that type of player and having his career cut short because the Kings forced him into that type of alpha role.
I think that’s a legit concern.
I think it’s more likely Fox will improve his defense & shooting than Simmons will improve his shooting.
Maybe, but that’s highly speculative and Simmons currently has the lead.
He’s an elite defender. Elite rebounder (from his position). Elite passer. Very good scorer in the regular season. Awful shooter.
He may not be elite, but you can see elite from where he is.
I think the only way the Kings are involved in a Simmons trade is as a third team. Buddy and Bagley don’t help them win now by that much. McCollum is a better player than Buddy and the Trail Blazers should have already asked about a Simmons for CJ trade. The Kings could get in there as a team who acquires picks and sheds one of those aforementioned guys anyway.
I agree we’re probably not the top offer. But if for some reason the price comes down that a couple of defensive liabilities and picks get us a 24 year old All-Star to pair next Fox and Hali I am all for it. I’d go so far as to trade Hali in a package for Simmons, but not Fox (unless they threw in extras on top)
If we aren’t getting Simmons, we shouldn’t be part of the trade.
I don’t know about the rest of you, but I never want to see the words “pick swaps” in the discussion of any deal involving Philadelphia ever again.
Since the Kings got Fox in that draft & Philly got Fultz, the pick swap didn’t hurt the Kings too badly.
Pretty interesting – “highly unlikely” is a bit of a move from “untouchable”.
Nobody is untouchable!
Nobody!
Thank god he was touchable…wait, that didn’t sound right…
Too bad he was able to stick around so long.
Which one?
Both…but Karl did not spend a career ruining this team. Boogey for the win.
he was touchable¦
Buddy agrees.
“Technical, Cousins!”
Fox is overrated.
You need several seats sir.
(a) I would happily acquire Ben Simmons.
(b) the price matters, a lot.
While Simmons would be a nice get for Buddy/Bagley/2 firsts, this team does not improve until they get a pitbull who doesn’t allow them to lose 9 games in a row (twice), doesn’t allow them to stand around after their teammate gets punked, doesn’t allow them to be content padding their stats, etc..
What you are saying is correct and requires trading or releasing everyone except for Haliburton and Holmes. Holmes is likely leaving so you need to find another center too.
I think 1 guy can come in and change the culture, it wouldn’t have to involve releasing the soft guys. A Chris Paul/Marcus Smart type wouldn’t allow the soft guys to continue being soft.
That one guy is not going to change the entire culture in my opinion. The leadership coddles the soft guys. The soft guys are unfortunately untouchable.
My opinion….
You’re right, it would take a FO culture shift as well.
I think getting Crowder as well as Paul changed the soft culture ! Kings likely need two as well !
Won’t happen until Walton is canned
It’s definitely those long losing streaks that are killing the Kings. Year after year.
Howzabout a little…..CASH CONSIDERATIONS, Philly?
Eh? Eh?
I can haz money?
I had it all planned out in my head, and a trade of hield, bagley, this year’s pick and an unprotected future first and a sign and trade of Holmes for Simmons and Danny green works out. Sixers really really need a good backup for embiid, and Holmes is perfect.
Trade Barnes to the celts for smart and Tristan Thompson so they can get out of his bad contract, and we have a new center. Trade fox to Toronto straight up for siakam, and we now have a new starting five. They get Lowry’s successor in fox, and they can pickup kuminga to be siakam of the future but cheap.
So in my head, this proposed line up looks like
Hali, Smart, Siakam, Simmons and Thompson as your starting/crunchtime 5.
Congratulations,,,that’s the worst shooting team in the league. Grit and Grind here we come!!!
I would much prefer grit and grind to the current high-scoring/zero defense team.
Grit and Grind has it’s limits if you can only score 80 points a game. Which that team would frequently in today’s league. If it was 1984, that might be decent squad.
I think that a team could potentially be ahead of the curve by starting to build a grit and grind game. After zigging towards protecting offensive players with their rules, the NBA may zag back again because the foul-hunting is becoming too annoying and hurting the product.
It was fun seeing Team USA players waiting for touch fouls and FIBA refs saying “Nah. just keep playing”.
That doesn’t account for the terrible spacing that team would have with only one 3 pt threat. That team would actually need to get to the line a ton. And one of the guys that theoretically could shoots 60% from the line.
I don’t mind some grit and grind…would be good for Kings to have some guys like that. Just not all of them.
Do the Kangz even understand the concept of spacing right now?
Considering the team was in the top half of the league in scoring last year, hard to argue that they are clueless on this particular topic.
When Fox, Holmes, and Halliburton are in the line up yes. Bagley in the mix is laughable in regards to spacing. He does not even really know where he is on the floor so he just sticks with offense. Occasionally he copies Hield and hovers around the three point hoping he can catch and shoot to avoid any contact and having to dribble. Hield is fine with spacing as long as he does not have to move with the ball or go towards the basket.
Glad they made it to the top half in scoring to avoid any hope of a decent draft pick.
So you note that you are fine with the spacing of 4 of 5 players named, not including Barnes, who not sure how you wouldn’t include him. So 5/6’s of the players who played the most minutes you think have good spacing. But you still think they have poor spacing…Seems like an easy problem to fix.
Your last sentence makes zero sense in relation to this discussion. It would be better if all their players weren’t good at anything?
Are you contending that the Kings are a well coached team that can properly execute an offensive game plan?
I am saying that Holmes, Fox, and Haliburton understand spacing in general terms. Hield’s idea of spacing is running to the three point line and stopping. That is three not four. Barnes is too smart to be on this team.
The spacing goes to crap every other play because half of the roster does not know what to do. Find anyone associated with the NBA that will declare the Kings an intelligent team that utilizes spacing well. Remember watching isolation basketball with the wrong guy dribbling the ball because they are so great?
Good ball movement and spacing is not what the Kings are known for, they suck at it actually.
I think almost anyone including yourself would contend spacing is very important in current NBA offense…The Kings had a top half ranked offense in the league. Ipso facto, they must be spacing at least at a decent level. There’s 72 games of data that indicate they are at least average to slightly above offensively. What is your support that they are so terrible, other than your personal eye test?
I never contended the Kings were known for spacing, just that they weren’t clueless as you indicated. Saying they suck at it, is apparently fun to say for you it’s just not born out by any data. But it seems that’s not really what you are going after, so have at it.
The top half of the league in scoring¦wow. Great accomplishment. Still cannot reach the play in tournament which is the top half of the league that matters.
They suck at spacing it is a fact. They do not have a consistent offense. Find anyone associated with the NBA that thinks the Kings spacing is any good. That person does not exist. It is not fun to say that the Kings suck at spacing. It is a frustrating fact as a Kings fan who enjoys watching decent basketball.
You keep hoping that they bring it all back for the next decade and that they will win with current strategy and abilities.
You’d think a worldwide emphasis on social distancing for the past 16 months would have helped them get the hint, but noooo
I wish the pickup games I’ve played in had FIBA refs, to counteract the dudes who call a foul anytime they miss a bucket.
Yeah, that was very apparent against the Aussies.
The NBA has zero motivation to do that.
Oh yeah, NBA?
How about…..meow?
If only there were more options!
Yes, it is a bad shooting team, but they can all defend. I liked those grit and grind grizzly teams. Is it bad that I could see that team as like a spurs’esque team from their heyday?
Fine to like grit and grind style…it’s just means something different from even 7-8 years ago and if that can be effective still. Philly, Miami, New York all had top 8 defenses this year, but middle of the pack offenses or worse. They all struggled come playoff time to get buckets.
I think the idea of holding teams down to below 100 pts is pretty difficult consistently, even with a great defense in today’s game. Just have to defend too much space. You have to be able to put the ball in the bucket and spacing is a huge component of that in today’s game. All 4 conference finalists had a top 8 offensive rating this year.
And depending on which Spurs era you are talking about, I don’t see it. The early 2010s teams shot a decent number of 3’s and led the league in percentage a couple years. And the early 2000s teams had a dude named Tim Duncan.
I see those things missing from being a fair comparison to the line up in question.
You had me until Fox for Siakam, that’s a laughable trade.
The eagerness some around here have to trade Fox is truly bizarre to me. We literally overvalue every single role player whose ever shown a little hustle from Shumpert to Giles to Davis to whoever, but the one guy that’s legitimately a franchise player can’t get moved fast enough for some. Keep the streak, baby!!!
Are people eager to trade Fox, or only eager if a better player is coming back?
The better player argument is so wildly subjective when you’re comparing apples to oranges like this. There is no one-to-one way to compare the value of Simmons and Fox. I know you’re gonna throw the 3x All-Star thing at me, but Fox would be too if he played in the East rather than being buried on a small market team and competing with the Stephs, Lillards and CP3s of the world. Simmons is a better defender and rebounder, but Fox is the go-to guy on offense. I would say in terms of win share on this team, this trade would be a wash. And given the fact that Fox is highly-valued and fits well into the team, whereas Simmons is clearly odd-man out on his team/franchise and is selling at a low, I think a straight Fox for Simmons trade would be a relative steal for Morey imho.
Small market players make the All-Star team in the West all the time. Their teams even make the playoffs occasionally (actually, almost every season).
Being in a small market, in and of itself, isn’t a backbreaker for Fox. The lack of team success is – he’s just not the type of player (yet) that can carry a team in the w/l column.
This team would be far more balanced on the floor with Simmons, and that would translate into wins IMO.
Simmons would probably help the Kings more right now, but I think Fox a has higher ceiling. I think it’ll be easier for Fox to improve his defense & shooting than it’ll be for Simmons to improve his shooting.
I disagree. Fox is might be more likely to reach his ceiling, but his ceiling is lower. IF Fox becomes a decent defender and average shooter, he’s can become a top 20-ish player. IF Simmons becomes even a below average, but willing shooter he’s a fringe MVP candidate.
A good assessment, which argues for trading Fox to get Simmons.
I think Simmons has a higher ceiling theoretically but he looked mentally cooked at the end of the playoffs. If he can’t dunk the ball when he’s wide open then I have zero hope of him developing any kind of a jump shot. Is it possible? Sure I guess. But I think Fox becoming an average three point shooter on decent volume is much more likely to happen.
Fox has to improve defensively as well. It’s not just about three point shooting. Simmons has been on the All-NBA defensive first team TWICE in his four seasons in the league.
He did have a rough go in the playoffs this season. But for his career, his playoff numbers are pretty similar to his regular season numbers.
I’d be fine sweating his free throw shooting in the second or third round of the playoffs.
No argument about Fox’s defense. It needs to get a lot better. I just get really worried when guys get the yips in any sport. If he were merely a bad shooter like Giannis I would t be worried. It’s the total unwillingness to even look to score that’s worrisome. I hope for Simmons sake he’s spending his off season with a sports psychologist because that’s what I think it’ll take to get past whatever he’s dealing with IMO.
I agree w/this, but I’d add that Fox also has to improve his defense.
Also Simmons plays for team in a market that isn’t softer than 10 ply charmin. I think he was in his head because philly is ruthless in the media and the fan base. If he came here I think it would be a good rest.
Zero stress from the media and ownership won’t push too hard ever for fear of making the talent angry.
That being said he’s not coming here.
The interesting thing is that even in that game where his flaws were on full display, he still put up 8 rebounds & 13 assists, played strong defense and was the only 76er to play over 20 minutes and have a positive +/-.
I think Fox’s ceiling is lower, he’s got plenty of ifs still as well.
Of course, that’s all situational. Fox is highly-valued by his team and fits into it well because he’s on a shitty team where he’s clearly the player the team is built for. If Fox were on a team with Embiid and Harris, he clearly would not be the go-to guy on offense and could very easily be seen as the odd-man out.
Or the perfect third fiddle on a championship team.
It’s possible. Or not, and they decide they need more shooting and perimeter defense, so they “sell low” on him. Either way, the point is comparing Simmons and Fox based on their team context is comparing apples to orangutans.
Sure, but that context shapes the market for him. Perceived value drives supply and demand.
And in this market, Fox > Simmons imo. If you’re gonna trade him, at least get proper value is all I’m saying.
You say that like it’s a fact. But I seriously doubt many people outside of Sacramento would say Fox has more value than Simmons. In fact, the possibility that Simmons is currently at a value low is the only reason we could even speculate about Fox potentially being enough to get him.
I’m not sold that when all is said and done, Simmons is going to be considered the better player. He is unique, given his passing and defensive skills at his size. Fox is turning into an exceptional player, albeit one who is more conventional (guard-sized scorer & distributor). I feel that this conventionality becomes something of a baked-in bias, because while Fox is very good, he isn’t a unicorn. Still, he remains the fastest player in the NBA, which on its own creates huge problems for defenses.
Fox must be more consistent on defense, and while his shot is hardly broken, his percentages from three need to be at least league-average. These things seem eminently achievable, given Fox’s work ethic and intelligence. I’m less convinced that Simmons is going to be able to become a consistently decent, or even close-to-average shooter.
What’s considered average 3 pt percentage nowadays? I’m only asking because the goalposts seem to move up every year for the last several years now. That’s probably because everyone coming in seems to be able to shoot, or is every willing to shoot from deep.
What’s considered average 3 pt percentage nowadays? I’m only asking because the goalposts seem to move up every year for the last several years now. That’s probably because everyone coming in seems to be able to shoot, or is very willing to shoot from deep.
In the Fox case specifically, I’d contend arguing 34% vs 37% is somewhat pointless. Whatever the number that is needed to make it so that his shot is respected enough to open up the other parts of his game. That might vary team to team and their own defensive philosophies.
Generally I’d say 35% would do that though for him. A spot up wing, I’d say average is closer to 37-38.
I believe it’s around 37%, and inching up year-by-year.
Which is crazy because I remember the days when you were called a sharpshooter for hitting that 35% mark. Man, I’m old.
This season, 19 players shot over 40% on more than 5 3s per game.
NBA average this season was 36.7%. Average for guards was slightly higher at 36.9%.
PG- 36.9%
SG – 36.9%
SF – 36.8%
PF – 36.6%
C – 34.2%
Wow, those figures are actually much higher than I expected. Everyone’s shooting so well from 3. Even that figure for centers used to be a good mark for the other positions.
Yep, once the generation that grew up with the 3pt line reached NBA age, the world changed.
Maybe. I don’t see the leap that others are seeing in Fox – and it didn’t translate from a team performance perspective (which has declined the last two seasons).
Regardless, my point was that most people aren’t eager to move Fox, unless there’s a very good player coming back.
Fox is no franchise player, unless the term has been expanded to include players who score a lot and don’t defend much on teams that don’t make the playoffs.
The only way this seems to work is if a 3rd team comes in & takes picks for a star. For example, Westbrook from Was for some of the Kings draft compensation.
That said, I would be amazed if the Kings could obtain Simmons with Buddy Hield being the best player being sent back.
I agree for the most part, but it should be pointed out that Hield’s shooting is a bigger asset (or should I say his ability to shoot would be better maximized) in Philly than it is here…simply due to the amount of times that Embiid is fed down low versus how often the Kings centers were fed the ball in the low post.
Philly also has better team defenders that would render Buddy less of a liability on that side of the court, Hield is just a really good fit in Philly.
Yikes.
I may be on a different planet but I am not a big fan of Simmonds. He can’t and won’t shoot. He has value as a defender and as a lead the fast break guy but he needs to shoot.
And the price is way too high- I would barely give up Bagley and Buddy for him and would not throw in picks at all. If Kings give up picks then they are stuck with what they got minus MB3 and Buddy and they get Simmonds. But that will not get them into the playoffs. For goodness sake, the word is out, foul Ben in the fourth quarter.
Hard pass.
That Philly offense is significantly better when he’s on the floor, with or without Embiid. If you need him to be your lead scorer? Sure, that’s a problem. But he offers value at the offensive end and a ton of value at the defensive end.
And last I looked, our team sucked defensively.
Agreed. Guy doesn’t even belong in the league…
Hell, I looked up his name and turns out he isn’t even IN the league!
🙂
D’oh! Sorry.
Hahaha…just didn’t want it on the interwebs that members here think I believe Simmons should be out of the league.
You looked in the wrong league! He’s in the NHL:
Oops.
Guy disagrees.
Well played sir…well played. Unforunately he is wrong : )
I’m frequently amazed at how much Kings fans overrate Bagley and Buddy. Bagley has no value at all other than being an expiring contract, and Buddy is an overpaid 3 point shooting specialist. On a consistently mediocre team, no less. Simmons has been a major contributor on a team that wins 55+ games.
Saw this floated about on Reddit. All teams fans seemed to think it was pretty fair.
That trade doesn’t work b/c Lowry’s an UFA.
The trade specifies a S&T for Lowry as part of the deal (also, I have no idea what site that is. Not trade machine, but it looks cool).
Ah. It was a bit blurry on my phone, so I saw Lowry, but not the S&T.
That site is tradenba.com and the site is way more advanced than ESPN. The site also lets you perform scenarios.
I believe you could S&T unrestricted free agents, it would be an agreement between the two teams to help cap space. Lebron did this with Miami.
Can someone spell out the trade for me please? My phone can’t show the picture for some reason.
Kings get: Simmons
Raptors get: Bagley, Hill, #9
Sixers get: Lowry in a sign and trade $20-30mil/year, the number in the example was 27 mil), Buddy Hield.
Thank you all. Looks like everyone should be happy, but it feels like sixers get shortchanged some.
Yeah, for sure. There’s probably other less expensive ways they could maneuver to get Lowry in a S&T.
I think the Kings would also need to give the Sixers at least one first round pick that’s probably unprotected or lightly protected.
Kings get Ben Simmons, Raptors get George Hill, Marvin Bagley and the Kings #9 pick, Sixers get Buddy Hield and Kyle Lowry (sign and trade).
On first glance:
Click on the picture and it should open in a separate window, clear as day.
Hield has negative value and Marvin largely neutral, so your sending a negative package to begin with before the picks
Well, I would trade Fox for Simmons straight up, but have to take the Kings at their word that they are highly unlikely to move him.
Unless it is a masterstroke from McNair to somehow force up Maxey or Thybulle too, still the wording of highly unlikely would come back to bite them, in terms of reputation
Those three-time All Stars just aren’t as valuable as they used to be.
Marty, being that you’re a Philly guy, would you trade Fox for Simmons? I am curious for your take on this given your dual allegiances in this case.
If I’m the Sixers I don’t want Fox. I’ll take two firsts and Haliburton for Simmons.
You keep your damn hands off him!!
Right? I give more pause at moving Hali than I do Fox.
That’s cuz yall stoopid doo doo dumb.
I’ll admit, a lot of that has to do with contracts. Fox’s deal is kicking in and Hali is under cheap control for years.
I also like Hali’s game better… so there’s that.
Yep. Morey aint stupid. Hali > Fox
And it’s enough assets to hopefully get the PG they want.
I have wondered who has more value around the league. I think Haliburton while not having the more impressive counting stats, will probably be a player who’s more conducive to winning.
Yes, it’s all about winning, 100%.
If the kings get Simmons we should likely be picking from mid teens and beyond so three consecutive years of picks in that range plus Buddy or Bagley sound like a win for us! But I doubt 76ers would be satisfied with this deal
If at the end of the offseason we end up with this starting lineup, I’d be be happy with it:
PG: Fox
SG: Haliburton
SF: Ball (BabyG tweets have sold me on Ball)
PF: Simmons or Collins
C: Holmes or insert a similar cheaper FA (Ibaka, Noel)
That would be an exciting as hell team if they mesh together well
If the Sixers want our spare parts (Bagley and Hield) and a couple of picks (which will be mid-late lottery if things work out with a Fox-Hali-Simmons-Barnes-Holmes lineup) then let them have it. 3 picks does sound steep, but Simmons is the kind of high-caliber talent you need to have to win in this league and those guys don’t come here in free agency (and they rarely come in the draft for this team). He fits the team, fits the timeline, plays defense, and is versatile with both the guard and forward rotation, so why sweat the three birds in the bush if you got an All-Star DPOY candidate in the hand?
Agree, because the 76ers have two elite defenders in Thybulle and Embiid, Harris is pretty good too, Maxey as well, they can absorb two non-defenders in Bagley and Buddy.
It is a rare that a potential trade partner can have in interest in two negative defenders in Marvin and Buddy simultaneously coming off seasons in which their offensive effenciency was poor.
I think we can give them two unprotected picks (22 and 24) as long as we can keep our pick this season, and the trade enables us space to resign Holmes and TD.
Ty
Fox
HB
Simmons
Holmes
—-
TD
Wright
King
Metu
Jones
(#9 pick)
If McGenius nails the pick, which I think he will if he picks Zaiare or Jackson, that is two stars we add to our roster and the 22 pick and 24 pick have less value.
Not to nitpick or anything but I thought you weren’t high on Ziaire Williams?
Apparently, his rankings are evolving. As they should if he’s gathering more information and watching more film.
Not sure why the Kings would be unwilling to give up Haliburton in a swap for Ben Simmons. Am I missing something or is Haliburton going to develop into an all-star caliber player? I have my doubts.
Also feels like Ben Simmons, Tyrese Haliburton and DeAaron Fox on the same team does seem a bit superfluous.
Yeah I think Hali, Bagley and #9 would also be fair value, but I wouldn’t be throwing too much on after that since I do really love Haliburton and think he’s the kind of glue guy that helps win championships.
That’s not enough salary going back to Philly.
Since I don’t think Fox and Simmons fit well together (having two ball-handlers that need space but don’t provide it is tough IMO), I think IF you want to acquire Simmons, trading Fox for him is probably the right way to go. And if you aren’t going to do what it takes to maximize Simmons’ skills, then he probably isn’t worth the price to acquire him.
And one: IF you are willing to spend assets to add established front court talent AND want to continue to build with Fox, then Siakam is a better target, IMO.
Siakam can shoot better and also can likely be had cheaper. I think his days of doing an impression of a #1 on a good team are done, but he could be a really great #3 on the Kings. Versatile, defends, hits 3s, I’d love Siakam if he could be had for Hield + Bagley.
And for the people who want to trade Fox, I will say I’d give him up for Jaylen Brown this off-season, too.
I can’t disagree with this enough.
Your statement portrays Fox as a non-shooter who can’t hit a 3pt shot. Fox shoots pretty well on the C&S 3s (39%) and his overall 3pt shot is not that bad. Fox shot 33% on 3.4 3PA over his career and 32% on 5.5 3PA last year (and 37% from the corners).
Simmons won’t even take a 3, has a career avg. of 15% on 0.1 3PA a game, Zero.Point.One. Simmons is not going to shoot a 3 and teams absolutely know that so they sag and clog the lane. Simmons is good enough to not let it effect him too much personally but it still impacts how his team is defended.
Fox is a threat from 3 and is not far from being league average or even above-league average if he reduces the number of pull-up 3s he takes.
Stats from NBA.com and Basketball Reference (Fox/Simmons)
The trade is Fox for Simmons, with possibly other ancillary pieces.
By doing this, the Kings are transformed from an erratic offensive team that can’t defend into a more versatile one that moves into the top half of the league defensively and moves the ball well. Simmons is an All NBA Defensive team player who can be switched around the floor to deal with any emergency.
Freed from the constraints of playing with Embiid, Simmons will shine as a distributor along with Haliburton. With Simmons, Haliburton, and hopefully, a good selection at #9, the Kings actually start looking like a team that can play the kind of offense and defense required for success in this league.
Simmons improves this team significantly on both ends. Fox, by contrast, will remain a ball dominant player who sets a tone that scoring the ball is more important than ball movement and team defense.
Such a trade also sends a clear message that McNair is constructing his team, and that no one is safe if they don’t go along with the program. It would loudly announce the end of the Divac era.
But I’d be shocked if Vivek allowed it to happen. Too daring, too imaginative.
Too stupid. If you are giving up a 23 year old guy who is on the upswing and is averaging 25 points 7 assists, and the only guy you get back is Ben Simmions…you should be asking for the world.
Like, say. a 24-year-old supersized facilitating big averaging an efficient 14/7/7 who, in 4 seasons in the NBA, has been ROY, 3x All-star, 2x All-Defense, 1x All-NBA, finished 4th and 2nd in DPOY voting, and has been among the top 2-3 players for a team that hasn’t missed the playoffs since he stepped on the court?
I can understand how, if people only watched Kings games, they might think a great defensive player, especially one who defends multiple positions well, and distributes the ball, too, isn’t that valuable compared to a ball dominant player who fills up the stat sheet, but doesn’t get his team to the playoffs. Focusing on the Kings might lead one to believe that defense and good ball movement aren’t really important aspects of the game.
But they are.
I can also understand the emotional attachment to Fox. But it can lead to an unwillingness to accept his flaws and a tendency to rate him as a future superstar despite his inability to defend, average passing skills and acceptance of mediocrity.
If this team is going to get anywhere, McNair needs to swing for the fences. Trading Fox is one way to do that. Nibbling around the edges and fantasizing about Hield/Bagley trades that only exist in the minds of hard core Kings fans will not get it done.
I see that we’ve entered the “he puts up impressive numbers, but they’re empty” stage of Fox’s career.
I can’t speak to other markets, but there is such a familiarity-breeds-contempt streak that runs through Kings fandom. Fox is ascendant, and opportunities to put more talent around him make a lot more sense than moving him for pieces. He is 23, and with the exception of the very bizarre ’19-’20 season, he has improved each season, most recently showing his ability to put the team on his back for longs stretches, particularly in crunch time.
That isn’t emotional attachment. It’s logical, statistical, and sensible. Unless your goal is a complete teardown, and want to get a bunch of picks for Fox, you simply don’t punt on a player that’s already as good as Fox, especially when he’s still got potential to keep getting better.
The Kings still have a tendency to go on these terribly long losing streaks, season after season, even with Fox running the team.
Trading Fox for Simmons puts more wins in the win column for the Kings immediately.
Fox defends poorly, and shows no inclination to improve. That’s not an ascendant talent in the NBA. By highlighting him, you highlight that culture. By trading him for Simmons, you send a signal to the rest of the team, the city and the NBA that the Kings are now serious about building a team that can compete on both ends of the floor.
Love Simmons but he’s worth 105 million over 3 years. That’s… alot. I’m willing to include the 9th pick and a 2022 protected 1st with declining protections.
I’m not including Fox or Hali, and if Hield/Bagley is too much for the Sixers, I get it.
Some trades are not meant to be.
I think if the Sixers can find a place to dump Harris and his salary and pick up a veteran player in a deal that could help them win now, then the Kings could be brought in to help round out the trade.
Would a Fox for Jaylen Brown trade be more attainable? He’s only 24 can shoot and play defense. Keep the ninth pick this year and pick up D. Mitchell, who is decent 3 point shooter as well one of the best defenders in this years draft. The question is will he be there at 3. Get a rim protector with Noel. Trade Bags for Markennan. Buddy on the bench.
Lineup. PG Hali
SG Mitchell
SF J Brown
PF Markennan
C Noel
Counter should be Barnes ,Buddy, the #9, and one more 1st rounder with some protection. Make Bagley play with Simmons. I think that’s a good pairing. Maybe A yin and yang kind of thing. I don’t want Fox/Haliburton for Simmons under any circumstances tbh. I’m fine with giving Bagley, Buddy, and 2 first rounders too, but not 3.
At least try to get Simmons. Everything on the table except Haliburton. Under normal circumstances, Kings should try to build through the draft, but you can’t pass up on this opportunity.
Even if you lose three 1st rounders (preferably fewer), I mean, Jimmer, Sauce Castillo, TRob…the list is long…when was the last time the Kings drafted a player in the Mid to Late 1st round that ended up being better than Simmons (i.e. All-Star, 1st Team, etc.)?
If we’re going to devote so much energy to trades/S&Ts in regard to Simmons or Lonzo, we may as well pull John Collins into the mix. Atlanta is likely to match any offer that he receives, but I’d be pleased if the Kings or another team forced them to shell out the absolute maximum in order to retain him.
I could see giving up 3 picks because the Kings just had a good draft pick, so their next 3 picks are going to stink anyway.
If you can get a talent like Simmons for Hield, Bagley, and 3 picks you do it. I was honestly wondering if a 3 team trade could materialize if Portland is really ready to rebuild. It could look something like this:
Sac sends: Hield, Bagley, 3 firsts
Philly sends: Simmons, 2 firsts
Portland sends: Lillard
Sac receives: Simmons
Philly receives: Lillard, Hield
Portland receives: Bagley, 5 first round picks.
I doubt Philly could get Lillard straight up for SImmons, but if Portland wants to rebuild something like this coming back for Lillard would be great value imo. Philly gets their point guard + Hield, so they are happy. I get that sending 3 first round picks out is rough, but what is the likelihood that those 3 picks end up drafting players anywhere close to a player of SImmons’ talent? We need to swing for the fences.
Why would Philly want Buddy and Bagley?
Stop with this Simmons is elite horseshit ¦ a player who can’t shoot is not elite. And Buddy and especially Pervis are even less elite than Simmons. This is a fuckall trade that doesn’t do shit for either team.
This Ben wasn’t much of a shooter as well…
Badge Legend