The Athletic’s Shams Charania posted a news and rumors update this morning that be the topic of conversation for NBA fans around the league today. The biggest news is that the Boston Celtics may be making a serious push for Kevin Durant. As a Kings fan that would be good news, as keeping Durant in the East is preferable to him joining a Western team like the Suns. But the bigger news is that the Sacramento Kings are listed as one of the teams that has expressed interest in acquiring Utah Jazz star Donovan Mitchell.
From Shams:
Along with New York, several other teams have expressed interest to the Jazz when it comes to Mitchell, such as Washington, Miami, Toronto, Charlotte, Sacramento and Atlanta, according to sources.
That’s the full extent of the update as it relates to Sacramento. Utah doesn’t seem to be in any hurry (despite rumors last week that a Mitchell-to-New York deal was all but done), and this could be little more than the Jazz making it known that they have other options. But Mitchell to the Knicks seems almost preordained at this point.
But since it’s the dead part of the offseason, it’s still fun to have the Kings included in these types of rumors, even if the actual fit doesn’t make a ton of sense. Donovan Mitchell would be a talent add for the Kings, and it makes sense for them to at least call and kick the tires. But Donovan’s game overlaps with De’Aaron Fox’s in almost every way. Both are ball-dominant scoring guards, and both have a history of being turnstiles on defense. If the Kings could acquire Mitchell without giving up Fox, it’s a messy fit. Realistically, the Kings most likely path to acquiring Mitchell would be to trade Fox, but even if Fox was going to Utah the Kings lack the draft capital that Utah would likely be seeking to sweeten the deal.
What might make sense is for the Kings to be involved as the third team. The Kings have a variety of moveable contracts that could help Utah balance the books in a trade with the Knicks or anyone else. The Kings could use the opportunity to take on draft assets or a young player as the cost for helping facilitate a star trade. How that would actually look, I don’t know. I’ll leave that to you trade machine fiends. But I like it as a basic concept.
So I put the questions to you: Would you want to trade for Donovan Mitchell? If so what’s the best package you’d give Utah. Or alternatively, what’s the best trade scenario you can come up with where the Kings are the third team in a Mitchell deal?
Fox for Spida straight up? Sure. I would love a starting line of Davion, Donovan, HB, Keegan and Sabonis. Other than that, no thanks.
Agreed. A one to one substitution, Fox for Mitchell would make the Kings a MUCH better team especially if the goal is playoffs ASAP. I don’t know how they could get that done without giving up other assets tho.
You really think swapping Fox for Mitchell straight up will add that many more wins? I’d say it is less than 5.
Honestly. If you think Fox’s defense sucks, wait until you’ve got Donovan Mitchell spearheading your perimeter defense. And it’s not as if he’s got Rudy to bail him out ten times a game anymore.
Exactly. Mitchell without Rudy would lead Utah to less than 40 wins and he won’t be an all-star. He’d be very “Fox-like”
Honestly, I think Utah knows this and will move him this summer because he won’t have the same value after a year without Gobert and Snyder.
I’d not be surprised. Some team is going to vastly overpay to get Mitchell, and I’m content to let him be someone else’s problem.
If Ainge is involved in a deal, you can be damned sure that he’s not going to be the one with the sore ass when all is said and done.
This is why if i’m the Knicks, I make Utah come back to me a little. I don’t know if you saw the package Fred Katz proposed from the Knicks POV (he’s the Knicks beat writer for the Athletic now), but it was a bunch of 2023 picks PLUS a 2025 pick. I’m wondering if that package is all that enticing to Utah since that would be like 4 FRP’s next season for them.
Then again, who knows? Ainge will try to maximize the value of Mitchell, but I don’t think he’ll get another Gobert-like offer.
The fun part is, if they paid Brunson all of that money to be the guy, why add a redundant player, even if he is a bit better?
And I agree, Mitchell is Utah’s problem, not New York’s. Everyone is looking at things as “Well, if Gobert was worth all this, then Mitchell should fetch even more!”
Sue me, but Gobert improves a team more than Mitchell, and it’s not close. Scorers can be had, but what Gobert brings has only been matched a handful of times in NBA history. Gobert is the more important player, and demanding a similar haul for Mitchell is unrealistic.
That said, NBA owners aren’t generally any smarter than the rest of us.
“Gobert improves a team more than Mitchell”
Didn’t Utah have to bench him for stretches in the playoffs because he can’t score? Or was it because he was getting torched trying to guard outside the paint? I forget which but getting benched for any reason besides needing a breather doesn’t doesn’t really scream “more important player.”
I don’t know if it would even add 5 more wins. Monty needs to stick with what he is doing. A third guard and a good 3 and D wing( again I will say I really like Trey Murphy 3 and I believe we can get him) and maybe a really good Defensive PF and I think that would do it.
Yes many more.
True, but I feel like Mitchell is the better player up to this point. Would like swap for Fox I think because Mitchell can shoot, has been an all star(right?$), can play off ball….all better than Fox.
As for D, if we believe Fox only needs motivation to be good, same can be thought for Mitchell? And will Fox get better?
Can Fox be better going forward? Depends if he improves 3ball, off ball and D…?? Bird in the hand etc.
Lastly, like it cause then we’d have Donovan Mitchell and Davion Mitchell. Fun to say.
But why do the Jazz do that?
They won’t even consider it.
It would take Fox plus picks and we know how stingy Ainge is so it’ll take a lot of picks.
Ainge’s interest in Fox would be to turn around and flip him for more firsts imo. That’s why a deal that would make sense would be a 3 way (Kings, Knicks, Jazz): Donovan to the Kings, Fox to the Knicks and a boat load of firsts from the Kings and Knicks to the Jazz.
Vivek is a jock-sniffing, name-chasing douche owner. Every time a big name is floated, Vivek wants the Kings to be mentioned in the media, whether its a possible fit or not. I’m sure he leaked it to some agent.
It’s kinda sad.
Small, if true.
No thanks. What the heck is this board’s obsession with Mitchell? He is arguably the worst defender in his position and he is like 6’1. He is a better shooter but a worst driver. He also has pretty questionable IQ. How does Mitchell move the needle for this team?
This board’s “obsession” with Mitchell is that he is a good young player that is rumored to be available and the Kings are talent-starved. They should be kicking the tires on absolutely every opportunity to improve the talent level on the team and Mitchell would absolutely move the needle in that regard. Personally, I don’t know if he’d move it enough to justify the likely cost, but that doesn’t mean I don’t understand the interest or need to pretend Mitchell isn’t a very good player.
If you give up talent to get talent and you end up in the same place, you will still be talent stave. If Mitchell wants out and Utah wants to rebuild, I would gladly entertain giving up picks and Barnes or whoever to get Mitchell. But giving away a 1B player + picks to get a 1B player back doesn’t make sense to me.
Because the current point guard does not win.
Mitchell hasn’t shown he can win either. Especially when he has to lead a team by himself. I mean, why are the Jazz even looking to trade him if they think he could carry the team?
I don’t think Mitchell carrys a team. I think Mitchell can lead much better than Fox can.
MItchell has performed well for a team that has won a bunch more than the Kings.
How do you ignore the fact that the Jazz are better than the Kings?
Perennial 1st place in the West, Conference Finals contenders? Total trash.
Definitely need to tank…..
Ehh I would rather get Bojan Bogdanovic to shore up our wing spot and who is a much realistic get rather than Mitchell.
If Fox + Barnes and future picks would get it done then by all means do that trade. I think the Jazz would say No.
Based on the rumors about what the Jazz are asking for, I think it’s best to sit this one out. We could offer Fox, Davion, and Keegan, and the Jazz would still want 2 1st round draft picks included.
Obviously being included as a 3rd team could be ideal, but as much as I think Monte is a solid GM, I get the impression that his process-driven approach would make it difficult to keep up with a quickly evolving 3-way trade scenario. We’ll see.
Pass. Utah would likely start with Fox and picks, and would probably ask for more than that. Even a straight swap for Fox and Mitchell doesn’t move the needle for either team. IMO, Mitchell is marginally better than Fox and if you think Fox is a poor defender, you haven’t watched enough of Mitchell. In the end, Utah is going to want multiple prospects and/or players for a rebuild.
As for a three team deal with the Knicks I’d settle for this:
Utah: RJ Barrett, Quickly, Toppin, Terrance Davis. Knicks: Mitchell. Kings Cam Reddish
Utah gets their prospects and whatever picks the Knicks stupidly give up, the Kings just swap out a bench buried TD for a flyer on a wing in Reddish, and the Knicks get their new Carmelo.
I’d would do that.
Of course you would but the Kings are not getting Reddish by just giving up TD. The previous poster needs to correct his proposal.
Reddish has about as much value as TD. He couldn’t get off the bench in NY after being traded for Kevin Knox and a heavily protected first that will likely convert to 2 second round picks. He didn’t even get offered on extension on his rookie deal.
Terrance Davis has put up better career numbers with less minutes than Reddish has.
Why do you need a three team deal. In your scenario the Kings are giving up TD and getting Reddish.
It’s contract numbers. NY needs to send out money to match Mitchell’s contract and the deal saves Utah about $2M.
The problem with it, is Utah already has a full roster. They are going to need to dump players because they took on quite a few in the Rudy deal. I believe they are already sitting on 13 guaranteed deals. That is going to be an issue for them in moving Mitchell for multiple pieces. A 3rd or even 4th team may get involved.
That’s all true but your proposal has the Kings only giving up TD and only getting Reddish so a three team deal in that scenario is unnecessary and superfluous.
Uhhh…
Sure the Knicks could just send Reddish to Utah but 1) he costs more and 2) he arguably isn’t as good as TD.
That’s not what I’m saying. Go back and read your proposal. You need to add another player somewhere in that proposal for the deal just to make theoretical sense.
I don’t follow you. It makes sense to me. Why does another player need to be added?
Logic and reality left long ago in this thought if ever was there. Might as well give Utah TD for Mitchell and a future first.
As for 3 team deals, I was just playing around with someone other than NY. What about this idea?
Raptors gets:
Mitchell
Alex Len
Jazz get:
TD
Harrison Barnes
Pascal Siakam
3 1st rounders from Toronto
1 2nd round pick from Sac
Kings get:
Bojan Bogdanovic
I don’t think this would happen either, but just something other than NY. Jazz don’t save money this year in this scenario but save a bunch next season when they get to use all the 1st’s they’re collecting. Random thoughts.
So the Kings give up Barnes, TD, Len, and a 2nd round pick and only get back an expiring Bojan? I’m not sure I’d even give up Barnes for Bojan straight up.
Raptors are an interesting wrinkle though. It wouldn’t surprise me if a team other than NY came out of nowhere for an offer for Mitchell. One team that could swing it, has the assets, and has frontline core that would mesh well with Mitchell is Cleveland. Any combo of Markanen, Okoro, Osman, LeVert, or even the expiring Love, and picks for a Mitchel package could be something. They could even include a S&T of Sexton into the mix.
It’s interesting, but not surprising, that it looks like nobody really wants to pay Sexton.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he takes the QO and earns a good deal as a UFA next season. I personally don’t think he and Garland make for a good backcourt. The reported 3 year $40M deal of him by Cleveland seems a bit low, but they know more of his current health than anyone.
Hypothetically say he takes that deal from Cleveland and it’s part of a S&T to Utah, I could see something like:
Sexton, Markanan and picks for Mitchell.
Sounds reasonable to me. I think taking the QO is a good bet on himself even if I don’t think he’s a particularly good player.
Dante DiVicenzo bet on himself and it backfired (or it has so far).
Betting on yourself isn’t always the best strategy. Especially if you’re a player like Collin Sexton.
Absolutely true. It can absolutely backfire.
When he was traded to the Kings he was betting on himself?
When has he decided his own future?
He and his agent tried hard to force their way out of basketball hell by whining. Turns out they didn’t really want him. Sent him on his way without any commitment from any team.
Yes. He already turned down a 3/30 offer from Milwaukee the previous offseason.
Umm, they were upset, supposedly, about the Kings not starting DDV in enough games to qualify for the starters criteria to receive a higher Qualifying Offer. Even though DDV played enough minutes to qualify had he played enough games on the season. Which he didn’t due to the injury he had.
DDVs agent really thought there would be a bigger market for DDV, they got squeezed, and it turned out the pressure they were trying to apply to the Kings FO to sign DDV to a generous deal did not work.
If that qualifies as escaping basketball hell, then I think you got this one pegged to the t.
He had no choice in the trade and the Kings sent him to the curb without a job despite his attempt to force a trade.
One sentence sums it up.
In your opinion. At what point did he bet on himself?
You elude to an answer but then you ramble and kill the copy paste function.
Impress us all and actually answer a question. You danced around it with fragments of thoughts and run on sentences.
YOU CAN DO IT
Read this very very slowly and carefully. If your lips move too fast from word to word, you’re going too fast. Slow down sparky.
Dante DiVicenzo bet on himself, when in the midst of an ankle surgery in the 2021 off-season, he turned down a 3 YEAR 30 MILLION EXTENSION FROM MILWAUKEE. In the real world where the actual adults and real people live, we call this betting on yourself.
Man I feel sorry for your lips. They must be very tired come nighttime working for a dumbass like you that lacks reading comprehension.
Just trying to interpret your copy and paste rambling. What you said didn’t make any sense. I will use your copy and paste technique so you can read your response….
Yes. He already turned down a 3/30 offer from Milwaukee the previous offseason.”
When asked if the trade to the Kings was a bet on himself you said yes. Now you say something different…..
“Dante DiVicenzo bet on himself, when in the midst of an ankle surgery in the 2021 off-season, he turned down a 3 YEAR 30 MILLION EXTENSION FROM MILWAUKEE. In the real world where the actual adults and real people live, we call this betting on yourself.”
Pick one. I can comprehend what I read and I can write coherently. You should focus on writing short simple statements that make sense until you grasp complete sentences.
He definitely did bet on himself when he turned down the offer from Milwaukee.
DDV went from the promise land to basketball hell and back to (potentially) the promise land now that he’s with the Dubs. I seriously doubt DDV feels like his plan backfired…
…..and he had zero influence on his forced move to basketball hell. He is lucky the Kings kicked him to the curb.
This was just to make the money work. I didn’t do a lot of variations but I’m sure there’s one without giving up HB.
Bojan is a negative player in the NBA. Doesn’t move the needle.
Which is it? Is he a negative player or does he not move the needle?
Pass.
His highness doesn’t like playing with skilled big men.
No thank you. Just get us another Forward as a third wheel in whatever happens here.
Davion>Donovan
You might want to retract that post.
Wow
Nah. When all is said and done, our kid is going to have better +/- numbers because he won’t be giving up twenty points every night. Just watch what Donovan’s numbers look like this season without Gobert, no matter where he plays.
Davison’s teammates will give up 140 though.
Shams: Hey, Monte. If you could have Donovan Mitchell on your roster, would that interest you?
McNair: Yeah, sure. What’s the cost?
Shams: I’d rather not discuss hypotheticals.
Kings always thrown in there as the schmucks being used as leverage for other deals. Would like that narrative to change.
That’s a bingo!
I’ve been commenting on a Fox and picks for Mitchell trade, but as the article suggests, we really don’t have the assets to compete with other offers unless Ainge is high on Fox for some reason.
My hope:
Mitchell
Mitchell
Huerter
Murray
Sabonis
Now that’s a lineup that would interest me. Unfortunately the Jazz wouldn’t make the trade. Here’s a possible scenario where that first round pick we gave up precludes us from making a deal. I’d much prefer Mitchell and no 2024 pick then Huerter, Fox and possibly a 15th or later pick. I’d also like not having the $16 mil a year Huerter’s contract demands. I realize we still have Holiday contract for one more year but longer term more cap space. My closing lineup would be Donovan, Damien, Barnes, Murray, Sabonis. Now you have legit front end talent where targeted free agent acquisitions might make sense.
Mitchell/Mitchell
Monk/Mitchell/TD
Barnes/Murray
Sabonis/Murray/Lyles
Holmes/Sabonis
Donovan Mitchell is better than Fox, and it is not really arguable. So the question is one of cost, because the Kings get better if they have Mitchell instead of Fox.
Given that Danny Ainge is at the controls and that he does not currently have a gun to his head, I’m sure that his asking price would be something like Fox and 2-3 picks, and that would be a pass for me, though the acquisition of Mitchell would give the Kings its best player since Chris Webber.
Webber played defense. Mitchell doesnt,
Mitchell is a top 20 NBA player at the moment and it’s not just my opinion. He just is.
People don’t want those players on this team. More fun to plan for championship parades with Fox leading the shit show.
I know it’s amazing isn’t it.
Have to win but cannot change anything that has made them the worst franchise in NBA history.
Webber didn’t play defense. That whole kings core, except DC, were below average defenders. When they got guys like Keon Clark, Jim Jackson, then the team’s defense was above average.
Those teams were actually highly rated defensively, among the leaders in defensive FG%. Their up-tempo was deceiving when it came to ppg, but they were a very good defense when compared to the rest of the league, with the starting core on the floor.
I agree. I think even Peja’s defense was underrated. He would have had a good +/-, if that was measured back then.
Not sure I get all the D consternation when he probably would make team D barely worse if at all replacing Fox. Fox is no good as is. But Mitchell improves the team in most other ways on O.
I don’t think the swap will happen but Mitchell over Fox right now.
And, sad as it is, Mitchell is a better defender than Fox.
True statement
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Does Webber play in the NBA anymore?
I disagree. Mitchell is not better than peak DMC with the Kings and he is not better than Sabonis right now, who is the Kings best player since DMC. Yup, I said it, I wouldn’t trade Sabonis for Mitchell.
IMO, Mitchell is going to put up a lot of empty stats on a Utah team that won’t crack 40 wins because they’ve lost their 3X DPOY center to make up for all the issues Mitchell has on the defensive end. I say go let him be the Knicks’ new Carmelo
Agreed, DMC was a much better player than Mitchell, and to my mind, so is Sabonis. Mitchell is a scorer, but he doesn’t do anything else particularly well, and he gives up as many points as he gets, and that was with Gobert bailing him out.
Frankly, I’d rather have Fox/Sabonis as a fulcrum to run the offense around than Mitchell. I expect Fox to both outscore and out-assist Mitchell this season, and I also think we’re going to see him getting after it on defense. I think that Mitchell is as good as he’s ever going to be right now, and the cost is far too high.
Another thought. Holmes plus a second for P J Washington and James Boucknight. Then use Adansite”s 3 way and we get Cam Reddish.
Fox/Mitchell/Boucknight
Huerter/Monk
Barnes/Reddish
Murray/Washington
Sabonis/Len/Queta
It’s a good thought Jack but it’s not Vlade running those other franchises.
That’s a shame, VD has history in Charlotte, although he’d just end up sending their best players to the Lakers for second rounders and a pat on t he head.
Theoretically, if things go well, Fox’s assist numbers will probably be pretty similar to last season because more of the offense should go through Sabonis. As it did through Hali and Sabonis last season when Fox’s assists/game dropped. That doesn’t mean he got worse as a passer, just that his role changed a bit. As it should have and should remain in the future if the Kings are to be successful, IMO.
The big question about Fox’s impact isn’t if he can increase his per game pts or assts. It’s if he can push his efficiency up above average.
Good point, it’s probably a bit much to hope that the team just averages x more assists this year to the game average through Sabonis. Although with cutters like Keegan, I do expect a noticeable bump.
What’s this mean exactly?
It means that he needs to put more points on the board when he decides to shoot. His TS% is currently below league average (roughly 56.5%). So, in very basic terms, every time he shoots (or gets fouled and goes to the line), the Kings put fewer points on the board for that possession than a league average team would.
I understand the concept of efficiency, but some people use it differently than others so I was mostly looking for a clarification. Thanks.
PPS & TS% are excellent ways to measure efficiency. After the Kings traded for Domas, De’Aaron was at a 58.6 TS% for those 15 games so I’m optimistic he could do that for a full season. Maybe even a bit better if De’Aaron was at an 80% FT mark. Which would result in a 59.3 TS% at the same number of attempts he attempted in those 15 games.
Either way, this comes back to what I’ve said all off-season about De’Aaron Fox: Faith. Either you believe in the guy or you don’t. I’m assuming many here do not, and certainly not the extent that I do at this point.
If he can keep it at that 58% for the season and get his 3pt% to respectable (to force defenders to extend), which he may be able to do if he sees more open 3s from Sabonis kick outs, then he’ll absolutely make that jump to Mitchell’s tier. It’s certainly possible. Guys like Lavine and Booker took a while to get to the point where they were scoring efficiently enough to justify their usage. And for both of them it mostly came when they started playing with someone else that could get them a few easier shots here and there throughout the game. Though obviously both of them started with a better foundation for shooting success outside the key.
As with everything, we’ll see.
Is 38% respectable? That’s what De’Aaron avg’d in those 15 games.
The thing is, I don’t want De’Aaron avg’g 6-7 3FGA. 4-5 a game is ideal for him, and really that’s because he’s very effective at getting to the hoop. More so now because there will be so much more shooting on this team than he has ever played with. De’Aaron shooting the 3 ball, even at 40%, if he’s doing it more than on a medium rate (5 attempts per game IMO), is bailing out the defense. That is always poor offense no matter how it may ‘appear.’
That all said, as I keep saying, how you see this season comes down to how productive you think De’Aaron will be moving forward. And that will likely come down to faith, not based on his production of the past.
Sure. That’s more than respectable.
Look, I’m not especially interested in trying to convince people they shouldn’t be optimistic about Fox. If Fox makes a leap, everybody here wins. I certainly hope he does. I don’t expect it. But I hope for it.
It’s a 15 game sample size, near the end of the season.
Fox always has these spikes during a season just like he has these craters.
Can he fix his inconsistent motor? That’s the big question in my view.
Simply playing basketball in the third quarter is a huge leap.
I’m not arguing sample sizes here, nor am I arguing the track record of the last 5 years. I know what it is, I know how people like you perceive it Dutchman. Belief isn’t required.
But like I’ve said here numerous times (and now on Twitter for that matter), how you feel about this season comes down to how you feel about De’Aaron Fox. Either you have faith he turns the corner or you do not. It’s really that simple IMO.
Lavine and Booker both play off of the ball very well.
Similar to last year?
Last year Fox again this year and this team is garbage again.
I’m also curious why Fox (25-year-old, 5-year vet) is going to improve, but Mitchell (26-year-old, 5-year vet) is topped out. And why Fox is more likely to get after it on defense at this point in his career than Mitchell is.
I have a hunch that coach Brown is going to prove you wrong.
So if the difference is Coach Brown, would not Mitchell benefit from his tutelage in the same manner that Fox would?
I don’t get this either. Without Rudy, Donovan would likely to step up his lazy defense if he stays in Utah. Spida-to-Swipa straight up is a no-braina IMO, but it won’t happen.
Has that ever actually happened? A matador-defender suddenly buckles down after his backstop goes away?
My statement didn’t contain an assertion. So I’m not sure how it can be proven wrong.
Fox has the most talented group of teammates he’s had in his career, and he has a coach that isn’t here just because he’s the friend of a guy who played on the best third-place team in NBA history.
Mitchell has had talent around him since day one, and I expect his productivity to take a hit if he doesn’t end up on a team that’s already pretty good.
Exactly. Mitchell is already good. All star. Does anyone recall playoffs in bubble etc?
If Fox hits his 3s then you probably rather have Fox.
Size. I see defensive potential in Fox. I just don’t see it in Mitchell.
I’m not sure what size means? But I’m interested to hear why Fox has more defensive potential.
You need to go back and watch MANY Jazz games and you’ll find out Michell is much much better than Fox and the type of front end player we need. Having said that I wouldn’t give up Fox and our draft for the next several years. If it was possible I’d give up Fox and Huerter. I would have given up Fox and the unprotected first we gave up for Huerter. I know it was protected but had we not made the Huerter deal.
The Utah Jazz are 46-62 all time in games played without Rudy Gobert and are 25-20 all time in games without Donovan Mitchell.
I don’t care if Mitchell puts up 28, 6 and 6 next season with the Jazz. It won’t matter. I don’t think more needs to be said. Pass on Donovan Mitchell.
I’m sure all of the NBA front offices no that cherry picked stack along with a bunch of other analytical data and they are reaching different conclusions than you.
Any stat can be cherry-picked, but wins & losses is kind of a bottom-line number.
Mitchell’s production can be replaced for the most part, because there is no shortage of guys to put up shots. Rudy is, frankly, irreplaceable.
True but you can look at all the advance stats, PER, VORP, etc and they will all confirm Mitchell has a sizeable advantage over Fox.
Those numbers include a 3X DPOY playing behind him all 5 years in Utah.
I think Sims and I might contend that if you swapped out Fox for Mitchell the last five years in Utah, they’d still be a playoff team with Fox and the Kings would still be a 35 win team with Mitchell. The difference isn’t that wide.
Remember Utah was a 51 win team before Mitchell got there and they’ve surpassed that record just once in the 5 years since he’s been there.
I wonder if Vlade used to think that way.
To be fair, they were a 51-win team that lost two of their top 3 players that offseason. To say Mitchell was ONLY good enough to replace the production of peak Gordon Hayward isn’t really a knock on him. And I’m not sure we’re being totally above board on the records here. For reference sake, the past 10 seasons:
2013: 43-39
2014: 25-57 (Gobert’s rookie season)
2015: 38-44
2016: 40-42
2017: 51-31
2018: 48-34 (Mitchell’s rookie season. Hayward leaves before the season.)
2019: 50-32
2020: 44-28 (.610 w%, equivalent to 50-32 record in an 82 game season)
2021: 52-20
2022: 49-33
Cherry picked? It’s not some fringe analytical stat that can be debated. That’s straight up wins and losses. No more important stat than that.
Exactly. People complaining that Fox is not a 1A guy is drooling over another 1B guy.
Yes, but Mitchell is a GOOD 1B guy.
Respectfully, none of that changes the fact that Mitchell is a better basketball player than Fox.
The Athletic just did a tiers series. Mitchell came in at 27, Fox at 64. I think that this list, like any list, is subjective, and while I have no qualms with Mitchell at 27, Fox seems a bit low to me at 64. That said, no matter how I cut the list up, I can’t get Fox within a dozen players of Mitchell. Not even close.
And it is amusing to me to see all of the hand wringing over Mitchell’s defense, given the stunning lack of defense that we have seen from Fox and his mates over the years.
Also, if Mitchell is going to put up empty stats for a Utah team that that won’t crack 40 wins, what does that make DMC and the stats that he put up for a team that never cracked the 40 win mark?
It feels the argument is more “yeah, Mitchell’s defense is bad and his stats may be empty, but you can say the same for our guys.” And honestly, this feels like the point Adam is making. Why are we going to give up assets for someone that won’t obviously make this team significantly better than what we already have?
Because he will make the team better. Sportsnaut has Michell at 16 and Fox 35. CBS not my favorite publication has Mitchell at 17. I personally have Mitchell at 20 and Fox around 40 but no one has Fox above or even close to Mitchell. Also the indications from the market seem to support that opinion.
Right. I would not be inclined to give up picks and Fox for Mitchell, as I noted in my initial statement. But Mitchell is the better player, by margin.
I’d agree through their careers so far Mitchell has proven better than Fox. But ultimately, they’re very similar players with very similar strengths and weaknesses. Swapping Mitchell for Fox in the lineup straight up gets us probably a couple more wins. Mitchell for Fox + any other rotation player is HIGHLY questionable imo. And honestly, who’s to say the better player will be after this season. Fox has been in the shadows of a poverty franchise. Mitchell has been on a playoff contender. Next year, Fox may launch himself into a clear top 30 spot ala Morant.
I don’t see Mitchell and Fox being similar at all. Fox is a point guard, and Mitchell is really more of a 2 guard. .
And so begins year six of the De’Aaron Fox as a potential top 30 player. Rooting for it, but I’m sure as hell not betting on it.
I don’t see much reason to make that PG vs SG distinction. Mitchell and Fox put up similar USG and passing numbers. Their time of possession and front court touch numbers are similar. They play a similar role once their teams get into the offensive end.
I see it differently. Mitchell plays next to a guy that is more like Fox – Mike Conley. At least, that is the case when Conley is healthy. When Conley has been injured, Mitchell has been pressed back into his former role of ersatz point guard. The acquisition of Conley seemed to be made on the premise that Mitchell would be better if he wasn’t tasked with always running the offense.
Mitchell is a lot more like SGA than Fox, in my opinion.
Before Conley, Rubio was there. But in both cases, they were just the ones bringing the ball up the court and putting it into Mitchell’s hand for the most part. Mitchell has been the primary facilitator/ball handler in their half court offense for a few seasons now, spanning the switch from Rubio to Conley.
All of those guys (Mitchell, SGA, Fox) are the primary ball-handlers and facilitators of their teams’ half court offenses. Conley certainly provides a co-facilitator role (and the team success from having another quality ball-handler is evident). Fox and SGA would also benefit from shouldering less of the playmaking load since neither of them are elite passers. Really, the biggest difference between the three on the offensive end is that Mitchell is the more versatile scorer. Then, obviously, on the defensive end SGA is a good multiposition defender, while Mitchell and Fox are various degrees of poor.
Mitchell and Conley matched each other for assist percentage last year. The year prior it was Conley over Mitchell, the year prior it was Conley (and Joe Ingles!) over Mitchell, the year prior it was Rubio (and Ingles again) over Mitchell, and the year prior it was Rubio (and Ingles).
Mitchell is certainly the higher usage player, but when it comes to facilitating he has almost always played alongside a distributor (or two).
I’m not saying that he is incapable of playing point guard. But the Utah Jazz has almost never started him at point guard.
And Fox’s assist percentage was slightly lower than Mitchell’s last year.
Yes. Fox was behind Hali and Sabs (small sample size for Sabs) last year. Fox led the Kings each of the prior four seasons. So he has been the leading facilitator for his team for most of his time in the league (judging by assist percentage, anyway), while Mitchell has not been the leading facilitator for his team.
Because until Sabs and Haliburton, the Kings didn’t have any decent options besides Fox. The Jazz have. With Rubio or Conley on the roster, it would have been unlikely Fox led the Kings.
Yes. And the Jazz went out and got both Rubio and Conley, “traditional” point guards, to place next to Mitchell. And I’m guessing this is because they did not envision Mitchell as a prototypical point guard, at least not in the same way that the Kings have envisioned Fox.
Has the way the Kings have envisioned Fox ever worked?
Worked meaning winning games and building a team,
Which team is a better NBA team?
I don’t think Fox leads this team. He is the point guard. Doesn’t mean he leads anything.
Yeah it’s totally irrelevant. I think Mitchell handled the duties just fine when Conley was injured.
Yes, yes, yes. If Fox for Mitchell you want Mitchell.
I don’t get this assumption Fox is gonna blossom. And that Mitchell can’t get better defensively.
But right now Mitchell is the better player. As for impact, just by virtue of the fact Mitchell can actually shoot and play off ball would improve the team.
ultimately, this is Like Sabonis for Hali….I didn’t want it but Sabonis is a better player right now. Already an all star. Not close. Same w Mitchell. I believe
Trying to make a 1 or 2 positional comparison between Fox and Mitchell is antiquated thinking. Yes, anything’s possible but the historical data will indicate that Mitchell will likely continue to be the more impactful player.
We have a pretty well-establish community history of talking ourselves into how very good NBA players on other teams aren’t REALLY very good and aren’t better than the players we already have.
The problem is that there’s only like 15 guys in the entire league that will clearly put another 10+ wins on your team. Mitchell, while very talented, is not one of those guys. Is he so much better than Fox that we can sacrifice rotation players + picks? To me, it’s a firm no. If Monte is so geared up on ending the drought, then mortgage the farm for KD. Mitchell is not so good that the short term benefits will outweigh the long term costs.
I would trade Fox and a pick but when you say picks assuming meaning multiple firsts then I pass on the deal.
I think that’s really tough to say until we see what the actual cost is. IF we see what the actual cost is. Obviously, KD is a different beast both in terms of quality and cost. They aren’t really comparable IMO. I think not wanting to trade for Mitchell for his presumed/likely cost is a totally reasonable position to take. Personally, I’d have to see the cost and the bigger picture plan to be sold on it. That said, I also don’t think we have to pretend Mitchell isn’t a very good player and wouldn’t improve the team in order to rationalize that position.
Pretend? No. But it would take a hell of a lot convincing for me to believe it would be a good idea to dump a treasure trove to get Mitchell.
Plus if I were Utah, I wouldn’t want to acquire Fox and stick him in another losing situation. I’d want to be able to trade him as well, and that’s not necessarily easy to do with what Fox’s value around the league is atm.
I agree with all of that.
Boy don’t we.
Truth
Mitchell isn’t exactly a facilitating PG either Adam. He’s really a SG in a PG size body. He’s several inches shorter than De’Aaron Fox is.
I mean, TBH, I’m not exactly entirely sure why the Knicks really want Mitchell unless they think Randle can turn it around with scorers and talented players like Brunson (yikes, that contract!) and Mitchell.
It is what it is at this point.
According to draft combine measurements, Mitchell is 3/4 of an inch shorter than Fox without shoes (1/4-inch shorter with shoes. God that measurement is silly!). Mitchell has a 3.5-inch advantage in wingspan. While Fox has a 3-inch advantage in standing reach. They’re both small combo guards in PG bodies.
Mitchell is also 30 lbs. heavier.
With the accompanying strength, yes.
All of these comparisons are great but what it comes down to it Mitchell will not be a Jazz this year and Fox will be a King. Period.
My guess is that Ainge overvalues Mitchell in the marketplace and a deal does not get done, at least not until the Knicks reach a point of absolute desperation. The Jazz are really under no pressure to deal Mitchell right now.
What happens if Mitchell doesn’t move the needle on a bad team? Doesn’t that hurt Mitchell’s value then?
Not in Ainge’s eyes, I’m sure. He is pretty steadfast on how he sets values and does not seem to budge off of them much.
And I don’t think that the Jazz going from a 50 win team with Gobert to a 40 (or 35) win team without him is going to matter much to the Knicks, among other teams. Only takes one.
Fair enough regarding Ainge and the Knicks still wanting Mitchell.
Guess we’ll see in the end.
I’m not sure he overvalues him as much as he just isn’t motivated to move him for anything less than a Godfather offer.
I’m not sure what you’re driving at.
Beefier, just like his brother Davion.
DMC was the epitome of an empty stats guy, a coach killer and a chemistry wrecker.
I really respect most of your takes but this one earns you a technical foul.
Yup, cousins’ stats and occasional virtuoso performance belie the huge negative impact he had on winning.
To be fair, I said nothing of his character, which was absolute shit, but as a basketball player he was quite good. Those last couple of years in Sac are overshadowed by his poor behavior, but he was arguably the best center in the NBA.
I’m simply enchanted with the notion that the reason that Counsins’ Sacramento teams lost so many games was because of his terrible attitude, and not the talent on the roster.
Luka gets techs at a similar rate to DMC, but it doesn’t affect Dallas’ uptick in wins? How do you account for that?
Definitely talent on the roster. When you burn lottery picks on the likes of Jimmer, Thomas Robinson, WCS, McLemore, Stauskas and PapaG to pair next to DMC, you aren’t going to win many games while also wasting the prime years of a talented player.
Well, one Luka is simply better than Cousins ever was at his best and has the type of game that makes everyone around him better. Second, and obviously I can’t really measure this, but when Luka gets a tech he gives away a couple points. Cousins, on the other hand, would regularly spend multiple possessions complaining and mentally check-out for large portions of the game. And that’s without considering the number of actual ejections.
Cuz was a straight up asshole with mood/anger problems. It had a huge impact on players and the team. Ain’t nothing like Luka.
His character had a big impact on his basketball play, so kind of weird to keep it out of the equation.
I’m not keeping it out. I fully agree he was a pain in the ass, but that doesn’t men he was a very good basketball player, much in the way Artest, Rodman, and Rasheed Wallace were very good basketball players, but also hurt their teams with their shenanigans.
That’s where I’m at. And Defense questions…..I thought I heard or read that Mitchell, initially was a good defender when trying, ala Fox?
I’d agree that dealing with Ainge would be problematic, and I’d let some other more thirsty GM make a deal for Mitchell. Also Utah wants players on rookie deals, if Fox was the player to be traded wouldn’t he potentially need to go to a 3rd team for this to work
For Sacramento, leverage season is January through December.
I don’t see why the Kings being named in the article is met with derisive comments, I think Monte should always inquire about all-stars who are available.
I would be more interested, however, in him wedging into a three way trade. I wouldn’t think Danny would want Barrett if he is blowing it up, since he will be extension eligible soon, but would the Kings? I could get behind Murray at the 4 and Barrett at the 3 for the next five years. Maybe the Kings send Barnes to Utah (where he can be flipped to a playoff/contender by the deadline), the Knicks send Barrett to the Kings, and then the Kings add draft capital to whoever needs it.
I think Adam’s idea of using TD, who I think can really outperform his contract with minutes but won’t sans injury in Sacramento, to get a flier on Cam would be fun. I don’t know if Cam is an NBA player, but if the cost is only a minor talent buried on the bench, I would do it.
2 years ago I would really have wanted Donovan. But…..that’s 2 years ago.
Now? I’m not the fan of his I once was. He’s a great ISO scorer, of course, but that’s really what he does. He’s a league avg shooter, but I’m not convinced Fox can’t be this season (and beyond) either. Mitchell has been a bad defender….with Gobert behind him. He’s not an automatic put you into the Western Finals type of player. This isn’t Kevin Durant we’re talking about.
I get why you would inquire about the Mitchell conversation if you’re the Kings but more as a 3rd party than a direct receipient. If you could get Obi Toppin out of the deal and give up Harrison Barnes, wouldn’t you consider that?
I guess the wording of Shams piece could lead one to believe that the Kings are interested in Mitchell. It’s at least understandable to think about although I don’t see any way the Kings could pull it off were they interested.
But it’s that time of year, no sense in not exploring all your options.
I’ve expressed interest in winning the lottery.
That would be nice
Can you imagine this guy wearing a gold Kings jersey? Will would go bonkers!
I was initially thinking $$$, but that would be a nice lottery win as well!
Oh, I know. 😛
Let’s Make a Deal!
Would you rather win:
A) personally win millions of dollars in the lottery
or
B) the Sacramento Kings win the lottery when Wembanyama will be in the draft?
A, hands down in that deal. No guarantee that the Kings do enough to make the playoffs/win a championship by adding Wemb, but I can think of a whole lot of good I can do by donating money to charities I care about.
Now, should adding Wemb directly lead to a championship, then it becomes a lot more difficult!
I’m here to tell you, sims is all about getting paid.
Look at him! He’s already injured!
But he is playing thru it. Props for that.
Let me also add essentially nothing to this conversation:
It’s always tough to build and get better. This last month of the NBA Draft and Free Agency and Summer League was a tribute to team building and stability – Fox and Ox breaking bread with Keegan Murray before the draft, acquiring Malik Monk to fit with Fox, adding Red Velvet to shore up the backcourt and then the whole gang communing courtside in Summer League with Davion looking hungry to prove himself.
Changing all of that and bringing in the very talented Donovan Mitchell would elevate the team talent – All-Star Donovan Mitchell > De’Aaron Fox. But at what cost to the rest of the roster? Are unity, stability and chemistry just smoke and hope?
A part of me, and I’d say the silly part, which is the foundation of most of my parts, wants to see what Coach Brown can make of the squad as currently constructed.
On the other hand, an upgraded “real” SF (for Richaun Holmes, not HB) would raise this team from a hopeful 8-10 range to 6-8, IMO. A guy who could decently defend the opposing 3 and contribute 15 ppg. Bojan Bogdanovich is more attractive to me than Donovan Mitchell at that cost. Silly, I know.
I think that is a very solid opinion. I too want to see what Coach Brown can do with a healthy Fox and Sabonis. I want to see how Keegan looks. I want to see another development year of Davion. I want to see how Huerter and Monk help the roster, but I also want to see an upgrade at SF, or the very least a legit role playing SF. Maybe KZ or Moneke can fill the role, but we shall see.
Help me out. Is there any way we could get our hands on Trey Murphy II? IMO he is going to be a really good SF. He only played 2 games in Summer League but lit up the league. He can play defense.
I think the Pels will be a playoff team this year and will be on the lookout for help at the deadline, especially if Zion or Jonas are dealing with injuries. They are loaded with wing depth but are shallow on front court talent.
Depending on where the Kings stand, Barnes and/or Holmes could help the Pels quite a bit. That is when the Kings could target someone like Murphy III and maybe a pick.
It’s also true that the Pels don’t necessarily need to deal Murphy in favor of Jones. What if Jones, or even Alvarado for that matter, are just one year wonders? That does happen with 2nd rounders/undrafted players from time to time.
I’ve been operating under the assumption the Kings will still have Barnes and Holmes at the start of the season though. I’m not especially of the belief that there are trades coming, and not just because of the Durant/Mitchell potential transactions either. I just don’t see teams really wanting to make deals until mid January when all Free Agents have become available to trade.
I agree, the deadline is when they likely get moved.
One thing I’ve been thinking about is if Barnes likes it here and like the direction the Kings are going, I wonder if he’d sign an extension this summer. He likely gets one more good contract at age 30 so maybe the Kings get him for a few more years on a good deal? It’s not like the dude is washed. He is still a very good basketball player.
That’s an interesting question regarding Barnes Adam. The answer is I truly don’t know. Obviously there are three outcomes, but I think there’s two that rise above the third. The third option is they resign Barnes. The first and second options are trade at the deadline, if not before, or next summer as a S&T. Even though the Kings will not be under the cap barring a great deal of changes, it won’t matter because Barnes is not getting a deal exceeding 20M which is what would trigger BYC.
If the Kings want to see what a player with Barnes profile looks like next to Keegan Murray, and then switch it up and go a different way from 2023 on, they could do that.
My point here is I think the Kings might move on from Barnes if they don’t like the fit next to Murray, or they might keep Barnes all year if things are going well and then explore S&T’s over the summer if it comes to that. If the Kings are looking for that dynamic 3&D wing next to Murray and Sabonis, Barnes ain’t going to be that guy.
It’ll be interesting to see how they handle both Barnes and Holmes moving forward, at the very least, me thinks.
To get Reddish as the third team.
I didn’t include picks because I think people would dispute a selection either way. Whatever picks NYK has to provide to get it done is what would be included here.
NYK gets Donovan. UTH gets the picks and three prospects from NYK. SAC takes on Rose and buys him out to go somewhere else. SAC also gets Reddish as the backup SF and only true SF on the roster. We send Holmes, Lyles, and Davis to Jazz to balance salary. Lyles and Davis are expiring. Ainge may want to experiment with Davis or can cut him and Lyles if they are not re-tradable. Holme can play and be rehabbed before being traded though I realize the length of his deal is not going to be ideal for Ainge.
How about Alex Len and Terrence Davis straight up for DM?
No?
Oh well, I tried.
It will take Fox, Barnes, and picks.
Ainge doesn’t want Fox. Not his type of player.
From the Kings perspective not a bad deal. It is not a complete game changer but it does move the team in a new direction without completely exploding the team.
Mitchell is a better over all player than Fox and could be a catalyst for freeing up a roster stuck on building around mediocrity for more than a decade.
It feels like we’d have to give up Fox to make this happen, and I don’t like that swap. Mitchell is only marginally better than Fox. Fox is still a year and a half younger, he just spent offseason getting along with Sabonis, and we just signed his BFF Monk. Trading Fox would rock the boat.
Edit
I was going to say they’re exactly 1 year apart, misremembering when I checked the other day and thinking they were both born in December. In fact, they’re about 14.5 months apart.
Glad I went back and rechecked before it was too late to edit.
But yeah, bottom line is the Kings aren’t trading Fox.
1 year 104 days to specifically accurate.
No sarcasm intended.
Is the sinking ship that might win 40 games this year if everything goes perfect so sacred that it should not be rocked?
Very few people think the Kings should remain stable as is. Most people in the NBA world think this ship sank long ago.
At this point you don’t change strategic level decisions on a whim. Especially since you’ve made tactical investments and moves to support original strategies. Being stable, isn’t one of the myriad of problems the Kings have dealt in the last 16 years. I think most people in the NBA finally see something that resembles the possibility of a successful strategy coming from the Kings organization.
I agree that stability is needed but I do not agree that Fox is needed. Building around Fox has been a failure. Hanging onto the idea that Fox can lead this team to average playoff team is a fantasy in my opinion.
Do they? I mean, the only moves the Kings have made recently that we’ve seen a lot of comments around the league on are the Sabonis trade and the Murray pick, and the reactions to those moves have been mixed at best.
You cannot forget that the same roster, other than Sabonis and Murray, that broke the record for consecutive seasons without a playoff appearance is highly respected in the NBA world.
In what world is this the same roster?
These 9 players and multiple coaches were on our starting season roster last year:
Marvin Bagley
Buddy Hield
Mo Harkless
Tyrese Haliburton
Damian Jones
Louis King
Jahm’us Ramsey
Tristan Thompson
Robert Woodard
coach:Luke Walton
Asst: multiple?
Fox, Barnes, a random forward, Sabonis, and Murray.
Only thing different with that starting line up is Sabonis and Murray.
Nobody considers the Kings a threat.
“something that resembles the possibility of a successful strategy” is a very low threshold to meet. They do.
I’ve read more than a couple of articles lauding the Kings’ off-season moves, actually, one which said something along the lines of “sleeper playoff team on the rise” after the Monk and Huerter signings.
Take that however you want, but it definitely supports GFunk’s statement.
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