In last year’s Season Review for Maurice Harkless, I wrote the following:
My only hope is that if the Kings keep him, it’s to provide veteran depth, as opposed to keeping him expecting Harkless to be a key starter on a team hoping for the playoffs.
The Sacramento Kings proceeded to start Harkless on a Kings team hoping to make the playoffs. In the first 20 games of the season, Harkless played in 16 games and started 14 of them. He started a total of 24 games this season, earning fewer starts as the season became truly lost.
In short, the Kings did exactly what I hoped they wouldn’t do, and it went exactly as expected.
None of this should reflect on Maurice Harkless. On a per-minute basis, he played remarkably similar to how he played after arriving in Sacramento last season. Maurice is he who is, a solid veteran who can play the three or the four for limited minutes. The Kings, as they’re prone to do, simply expected him to be something he wasn’t.
I was never upset watching Harkless play. He doesn’t make major mistakes, he’s just often outmatched when playing against other starters. But he’s a professional, and he always seemed to give a damn when he was on the floor. The one thing about Harkless’ season that stands out in my mind is him getting into a verbal altercation with Buddy Hield on the sideline during a timeout. Harkless cared and gave his best even as those around him didn’t.
Harkless is under contract to return to the Kings next season, with one year remaining at $4.5 million. If he returns, he’s a perfectly fine value on his contract. The Kings could also look to trade Maurice either this summer or at the trade deadline. My one ask is that if the Kings keep him around, they need to know what he is and what he isn’t. Don’t make the same mistake again of asking Maurice Harkless to be a starter on a team with playoff aspirations. Not again.
Some rumors circulating about Randle and Hayward, and some Knicks sites are still kicking around the idea of Fox for Randle. What would you think if the Kings get Hayward for Fox in a three-team deal? Start Mitchell and Divincenzo.
I’d really have to see a lot more details to that deal. I don’t think Mitchell, DDV is a winning backcourt combination but, of course, there would likely be a lot more going on in those deals. A deal where the Kings give up Fox and receive Hayward would likely include other valuable assets coming the Kings’ way as well.
The Fox for Randle idea is simply a non-starter for me as I simply don’t see Randle and Sabonis working together as a front court.
I’m also not sure the idea works for CHA since the entire reason they would be incentivized to move Hayward would be to create room for signing Bridges. Acquiring Randle doesn’t do a whole lot to solve any of their issues.
yeah, it might have been a better hypothetical if I included another asset coming with Hayward. Good points.
Kings would be absolutely stupid to do that deal. According to James Ham, the Kings FO reportedly thought they were getting 2 All Stars when they made the Sabonis deal. Maybe the consensus around here that Fox isn’t capable of that but TKH doesn’t hold the sole opinion worth having. Your opinion of Fox will come down to faith. If you don’t believe, you don’t. And so it goes.
De’Aaron Fox is capable of 27 and 7 on, IMO, reasonable efficiency (58 TS% or so) and is capable of doing so with Domas who could easily, IMO, average 20 14 and 6 on 64ish TS%.
You’re not breaking that potential up before you are confident you have no choice.
Yeah, I should say that while I entertain the idea of a Fox trade and generally enjoy those types of academic exercises, I don’t actually believe the Kings have any interest at all in trading Fox at the moment. I would be absolutely shocked if the current plan isn’t to building around Fox and Sabonis for the foreseeable future.
We really should entertain both a Fox and Sabonis trade. I doubt the front office is thinking this way but a total rebuild is required to create a sustainable winning team. Trading future draft capital for a win now player may sneak the team into a late round playoff spot that will dissipate in two years when they can’t resign Sabonis. It’s an illusion to think a new coach and a move or two and we are competitive.
I’d look to Portland for a possible trade with Sabonis. If Portland falls in the top 5, I’d take that pick plus Josh Hart and Keon Johnson for Sabonis. I’m not sure who would be a good trade suitor for Fox but I’d certainly look for offers. Maybe to Boston for two first rounders, Pritchard, Nesmith, Horford and include a swap of Holmes for Williams.
I simply don’t agree with this:
It’s A way. It isn’t the only way. Nor is it especially more likely than the other ways.
Whether they rebuild or not, it’s going to take a series of good-to-great player evaluation and asset maximization moves to get there. And some good fortune. Just like every other team.
Good luck with that. The pieces aren’t there for a quick turnaround no matter how you couch it. I guess if we got extremely lucky and snatched the first pick you’d have a chance but realistically I don’t see 3 franchises in worst shape than the Kings. Adding a 32 year old player with a history of injuries and one whose best days are likely behind him isn’t going to do it. Tear it down and get on with it. I just provided one blue print I’m sure there are others.
You’re still acting like the entire point of acquiring Hayward would be having Hayward on the roster. Acquiring players like Hayward are a way to add to your talent base AND asset cupboard at the same time. The idea of taking on bloated contracts for assets is hardly new. The Kings should have been utilizing it as at least one avenue to build for years. Any team unlikely to add impact talent via FA should be.
If Kings under cap- which they are not, they could take Hayward and assets but over cap precludes that strategy
And your point is. You want to add a 32 year old with declining skills to this roster
there may not be 3 franchises in worst shape than the Kings. K. Pelton had them rated LAST in ESPN.
But a total tear down is highly problematic since OKC, Houston , Orlando and Detroit have a head start on that strategy- and not just this year- they have a ton of high picks sequestered. Kings would go to back of line and not be able to achieve any successful tear down.
In the past 4 years or so-Mavs, Minnesota, Grizz, Sus, Cavs and Hawks have all passed the Kings by. There were different paths but all kept 1-2 high level guys and built from there. The current big bad bottom 4 traded everything ( except OKC and SGA) away. Hang onto a core of solid players and work from there.
Agreed. Besides if Fox is one of your best players, your not going too far. Defense is a necessity not a luxury. They would have been better off keeping Haliburton and continuing to look for a trade partner for Fox.
I don’t like it and good luck with that. Celts love Williams and love Horford.
Boston now like Smart at PG role.
Portland will get 5 or 6. Murray is 5, then a drop off- no way on that one.
You walk away with Murray, Ivey and Koloko, that’s a haul and not unreasonable if you move Sabonis, Barnes and Holmes.
After this entirely forgettable season it’s not unreasonable to think that the only solution is to tear it all down and rebuild. But………….A total rebuild ain’t the magic beans. Any rebuild is full of risk and they don’t always work. What evidence do you have that vivek would be any better at a total rebuild than he is at drafting one player in the lottery?
Also one of the main reasons they will miss the playoffs 17 years in a row and most likely lose Sabonis in free agency.
Faith?
My personal opinion of Fox not being capable of that is based on a significant sample size. That includes exposed flaws of Fox, exposed flaws of this organization and the fact that there are several impactful guards in the West who have a better chance to win the popularity contest that is the All Star selection. So the question is also what the All Star distinction is really worth.
Potential? We’ve had a steady diet of hoping for potential to develop into somethinmg that actualy nourishes us. In the meantime we are gnawing on the bones of the busts of unfulfilled potential.
First Fox just needed a different coach to be a franchise player, then he just needed an All Star next to him to take off the pressure, now he needs a really goud group of 3 and D players around himself and that All Star and we are already seeing a shift in that discussion towards having another (borderline (All)) Star type of guy replacing Barnes on top of that.
At least two of three things have to happen with Fox to get to the next level:
Exactly.
I think it is time to accept that Fox is not going to be the player to put a franchise on his back and carry them to the post season. If he and Sabonis are your best two players, they cannot be significantly better than the 3-5 players if you are expecting to make the playoffs. In fact, you will probably need to be solid 3-9.
I would not do it. With that huge salary and 32 years old doesn’t do it for me.
Bingo. And throw in a substantial history of injuries. I’ve always liked Hayward’s game, but he’s still owed $62 million over the next two seasons, and when I add it all up, there’s no way I’d do this.
Well, no. Nobody would just do it acquire Hayward. You think about it because there’s a chance, due to his contract and injury history, that he comes carrying other quality assets. Obviously whether it’s worth it or not depends on those assets.
Adding Hayward to this roster would be a ludicrous move.
Go on.
I did already very specifically.
I’m pro dealing Fox (and zero chance that happens soon) but I absolutely would not deal him for Hayward. And if you deal any other set of players for Hayward (obv not Sabonis) you’re out of cap space for two seasons.
Agree with all that.
So? What are the Kings going to do with that cap space? Taking on bloated contracts for good-but-overpaid players along with additional assets is one of the savviest ways a team like the Kings (read: non-FA destination) can use cap space. Then they would also have Bird rights/rookie scales on whatever other assets the Kings get along with Hayward. And his contract would be coming off the books precisely when you’re going to need/want to re-sign Sabonis. To say nothing of the fact that the Kings aren’t going to be an attractive FA destination for at least 2-3 more seasons. So all that cap space is going to do is let the FO overpay to sign a bunch of middling Tristan Thompsons, Alex Lens, and Justin Holidays.
Honestly, I think fans of bad teams often turn into tanking fetishists.
In my mind, acquiring Hayward almost guarantees Sabonis leaves. I’m not defending this position, but my assumption is (and Sabonis has basically said) that the Kings are going to have to be good for him to stay. If you acquire Hayward, you can’t be good, because he (and Fox) are hurt too much to improve, and you have no more cap space to acquire someone who might actually help.
Should have said I’m not defending the KIngs being in win now mode. I am getting the hang of this Windows Vista they have out in the shack though.
See here’s the thing. Hayward is often hurt. But the 50 games he plays he makes this team significantly better. He also would come with additional assets that the Kings could use to upgrade the roster. And, again, I’m asking who this impact FA is that you’d use that cap space on? Because the Kings haven’t signed a FA with that kind of impact in, what, 20 years?
There isn’t a magic bullet to make the Kings good. It’s going to take at least a couple-few years and multiple good moves. Probably a decent amount of roster turn over. Every player acquired doesn’t have to be (and won’t be) someone that plays a bunch of impact minutes for the Kings next competitive team. IF the Kings become a competitor, there are going to be multiple stepping stone players/deals along the way. Ones that don’t jettison the team to contention, but help them take the next step in terms of results and assets. There are going to be Jason Williams’s and Nick Anderson’s and Corliss Williamson’s along the way.
I think being bad for so long has convinced some Kings fans that there’s somehow only one path to success that keeps eluding us. Or that we refuse to take (tanking). And if we just choose that path, BAM, we’ll be winners. We’re so stupid! The path is so obvious! They refuse to take it! When in reality there are any number of potentially successful paths.
And just what is this alternative you keep alluding to. This half way approach hasn’t work for 16 years. The most likely scenario for the Kings to turned this around is through the draft so get as many shots at the wheel you can. Of course nothing is for certain but that path presents the best option to be build a sustainable future.
I feel like you contradict yourself here.
“It’s going to take at least a couple-few years and multiple good moves. Probably a decent amount of roster turn over. Every player acquired doesn’t have to be (and won’t be) someone that plays a bunch of impact minutes for the Kings next competitive team. IF the Kings become a competitor, there are going to be multiple stepping stone players/deals along the way. Ones that don’t jettison the team to contention, but help them take the next step in terms of results and assets.”
Trading for Sabonis who is a two time allstar, putting a ton of faith in Fox as a guy who can be the guy or one of a big three (hopefully) is a step to getting better. Hopefully. I know, I know it’s been forever and nothing has worked. Trust me I know. I’m also not opposed to trading fox and Sabonis but my point is, they’re both pretty damn good players and haven’t really had the chance to gel with each other. Will they? I don’t know. Will our GM do a good job this off-season and get more high end talent to play with those two high end talent guys already on the roster? Yet to be seen. I’m skeptical just like I think all of us are. It’s a path, it’s actually a fairly solid path in comparison to what we’ve had for 16 years straight. The odds of the kings slowly improving over the next 1,2,3, 4 years is much bigger now than it’s been in a VERY VERY long time. Am I optimistic? I wouldn’t say that. I will say that there’s a very dim light at the end of a very long and very dark tunnel for once in what seems like forever.
reality is the franchise has invested in fox and ox. Throw the bank at miles Bridges and get lucky in the draft lottery, maybe something like that lets this team make the steps forward that are necessary to not sucking ass yet again? As you said, there’s many ways to improve. Not just one way. Not just through blowing it up (which I’m not opposed to). I do however see the dim light that the ox trade created. I’m just happy there’s a light and I acknowledge the fact that that is fairly sad. Not that you didn’t know that.
I think the Hornets will happily match any offer Bridges gets. I’m on record suggesting the same thing.
You wouldn’t use it on a free agent. If you’re a team in win now mode, which the Kings are, you use it on an overpaid, but talented player, but one that’s not going to miss 40% of the season every year while eliminating your ability to acquire other players who might help.
OK, so they’re a few games above .500 for 50 games and several games below .500 for 30 games. And if Hayward misses more than his usual 30 games, or Fox misses more than his usual 25, you’re under .500 and fighting to lose the play-in. They can’t make any other significant moves for two years because there’s no space to acquire another talented but overpaid vet. When those two years are up you have to convince Sabonis to stay on a 38 to 42 win team that does have cap space, but not much else in the way of future assets, and probably a new GM. Sabonis is going walk in that situation, and he should.
I agree, but I’m not sure what this has to do with what I said. I think the Kings have painted themselves into a corner where they must improve immediately (over the next two seasons) or Sabonis walks to almost any other team that’s in a better spot. Tank talk is pointless because this GM has been clear that they’re not going to tank. There’s not one way to improve, and acquiring Sabonis probably made the team better in the short term. But I think his contract means you don’t have multiple years to make incremental moves any more. If you want him to stay, you have to take big swings now.
I think a slight role adjustment could help Hayward. The last time he played more than 70 game he averaged about 26 minutes a night. Keeping him under 30 mpg could lead to more games played. I wouldn’t trade Fox for him but a Barnes/Holmes deal along with draft compensation from Charlotte was my suggestion previously. The long term talent acquisition is from the added lottery pick, Hayward helps initially and his salary clears at the same time Sabonis will be needing a pay increase.
I agree. I think the SFGiants made a great case last year that if you reduce load on older players with talent, you can get a LOT more production out of them.
Hayward is better than Barnes, but he’s not going to add more wins playing 26mpg or missing 30 games per season. I think the team is overall worse minus Barnes plus Hayward.
As I said above, I think you have to be in the playoffs on a trajectory to actually improve for Sabonis to stay in two years. And I don’t think subbing Barnes for Hayward does that, and adding Hayward to the existing players without moving Barnes prevents you from doing much else, and is also pretty unlikely to happen.
Subbing Barnes for Hayward isn’t likely to make the team better in the next two years. But adding the pick is a part of the hypothetical. If you add Sochan or the best available forward at pick 13, would that help fill the availability gap in your opinion?
What you do with cap space is to take on a serviceable bad contract in exchange for draft capital. It’s quite possible when one of these high priced free agents get signed the signing team will have to dump salary and perhaps you can pick up a good young player or some draft picks by taking some salary off their payroll.
But… but… that EXACTLY what I’m suggesting with Hayward. Seriously, that’s exactly what this whole conversation is about.
If it is then we agree. The discussion started with someone suggesting Fox for Hayward. I wouldn’t take on that contract unless it came with a lot of draft capital. Beyond that, I’m not sure what you are suggesting to turn this around for the Kings. I’m suggesting that a full rebuild barring some extraordinary luck with the draft balls is the best route. I would wait and see how the draft balls fall first and then go to work. If the draft balls fall in line with the statistical odds then I would clean house and acquire all the draft capital and cap space possible. Murray, plus Ivey or Mathurin or Sharpe, plus Koloko would be a nice haul. I would also move Fox for the right deal but again not sure who would return us draft capital and cap space for him. I suggested a trade with Boston or perhaps New York. Sabonis to Portland makes a lot of sense for both teams.
Thompson and Len were top lottery picks at 4 and 5 . Just sayin what is a sure thing often becomes middling role players .
Under cap, could “take on” the bloated Hayward deal but now would have to give assets in kind. Could get a Hornets pick ( middle of round) but have to pay dearly for that.
Why not look to buy a late first round pick from a team that is over cap, loaded and in no need to take on another rookie- duds, for example, who have Poole, Wiggins, Kuminga, Moody and Wiseman’s deals all approaching.
Buy the pick or trade for #36 where there is no guaranteed money attached.
Grizz got Bane this way.
Yes, you’d have to match salaries. That likely includes some combination of Barnes and others.
I personally think this is a pretty wise way to go considering what is happening with this roster at the moment. What if you trade the 7 pick for the 20th pick and a STARTING power forward or shooting guard as an example?
On a sidenote, I think Alondes Williams may be this season’s Bane. He or David Roddy.
Hayward is hurt frequently. So NO
Randle has to have the ball all the time. Not a winner. So NO. Randle would not work well with DS- or, for that matter, most anyone else.
and while I like DDV and Davion, not a quality starting backcourt.
agree
I agree with your agreement
Hayward is 32 years old. No thanks. I have wondered how Randle would fit with Sabonis? Is the attitude a by product of being in New York? Would he be better or worse in Sacramento? Randle and Reddish for Fox?
I’ve always thought the idea of Harkless has always been better than the actual player, but I do like him and hope he stays.
To me, he’s shown enough to be part of the rotation next year (but as a back-up 3/4). He’s long and active, he defends, accepts his role and I’d say he’s a relatively smart player (compared to the average Kings player). He is rather bad offensively, but I think he will benefit from playing with Sabonis, since Moe is a pretty good cutter.
All in all, Harkless won’t win you many games, but I think the Kings just can’t afford to move on from a cheap, long, defensive-first wing with the current roster construction. Also, as Greg mentions, he got into it with Buddy and showed he cared. I think the Kings could use more players like that.
Like the vast majority of the Kings roster, Harkless is a fine guy to have on the roster on a cheap deal. In general, the Kings problem tends to be asking/expecting guys to occupy roles a good 4-5 slots higher on the depth chart than they should. The good news is, unlike the Vlade days, we aren’t paying them for those theoretical roles. 3rd string type guys like Lyles, Len, Harkless, Davis, etc. getting $2-4 MM per is about right.
At the moment, if we’re trying to build a quality NBA team, the depth chart of players under contract (assuming picked up options and such) looks like:
PG: Fox, Mitchell
SG: [vacancy], DDV, Davis, Holiday
SF: Barnes, [vacancy], Harkless
PF: [vacancy], Holmes, Lyles, Metu
C: Sabonis, [vacancy], Jones, Len, Queta
Obviously, some of those guys can be moved around and we can quibble about positions, but it just shifts the gaps. You can move Barnes to PF, but then you don’t have an NBA-starter quality SF. You can call Holmes a good back-up C, but then you have a deeper hole at PF.
Building off that depth chart, how many possible draftees do you think could fill one of those backup spots in year one, or one of the starting spots by year two?
Let’s just get Jabari Smith, and add some cheap free agent shooters.
yep
or Banchero as a back up or Murray as a back up to the back up plan.
Those are nice players. The depth of power forwards at the top end of this draft makes it possible that one of them will fall to #7, but I’m not banking on it.
Agree 100% . Kings have several 11th,12th and 13th players but need 2 more better than Barnes to actually win . Must get a talented, shooting wing and 4 that compliments Sabonis . Those 2 have not walked through that door .
Agree but how do you get that with the currents chips they have available.
Exactly…. The part that trips me up is this..let’s say you sign Sabonis in his free agency it’s gonna be a max deal to stay in hell…at that point you would have fox and sabonis on max deals and even if they had guys signed to the type of deals they have now they would easily be over the cap.
Vivek may be the purest form of a walking ego we have ever seen but I can’t imagine they are going to pay over the cap to have a sorta maybe someday all star and a two time east all star.
I mean, they have a full set of arguably the most valuable future picks in the NBA. There’s no more stable value than a Kings 1st round pick.
So you want to give up future draft capital for players you think will help the roster now. Is that what you’re proposing? I think that’s a pipe dream but let’s hear it.
Do I WANT to? Not especially. But I’m not going to pretend it isn’t a viable option.
But are they about to?
let’s see what Monte can do. Like it or not this is the reality of this off season. Considering Barnes has only 1 year left on his contract and if you really want the 2022/2023 roster to gel and make a playoff run than he should probably be traded on draft night.
if not I don’t see #1.) how you don’t loose him for nothing after the end of next season or #2.) trading him at the allstar break helps you make the playoffs
An idea. Trade Barnes and our 2023 first rounder to the Celtics for Smart and Grant Williams. Trade Holmes to the Mavericks and our two second rounders for Dorian Finley Smith. Smart is a great defender and solves the problem at point guard. Williams used as a backup PF. Can also shoot the three. Smith starts at SF. Can shoot the three and plays really good defense. Now comes the hard part. If we could get Murray in the draft he is our starting PF along side Sabonis. Starters are Smart, Fox, Smith, Murray and Sabonis. Backups are Mitchell and Donte(they are starting to work well together), Davis, Williams/Lyles and Jones/Williams.
Should have been Jones/Queta. Sorry for the miss quote.
If we can’t draft Murray then draft Mathurin and move Smith to the PF spot.
Very nicely summarized: He’s good at the things he’s good at, and plays hard, but he’s not a guy who should be on the floor when the game starts.
I like Mo for the same reasons that you do, he busts his ass and plays smart. And when he gets into the paint, he’s looking to dunk, nothing less. Tre Lyles seems to have the same approach, and I love it.
Tre Lyles or Metu? Who do you like? I’d go with Lyles for the same reasons you do. Why either is starting continues to be a mystery until you remember that other than Barnes who is really a 3, we don’t have any other options.
I guess I’d say that Lyles is the more polished player, and manages to positively impact things on both ends, even without remarkable athleticism as NBA players go.
That said, I’m a fan of Metu’s. He does something that jumped out at me, because I just haven’t seen it a lot watching Kings games: He seems to grab rebounds nearly the moment they come off the rim, while they’re still too high in the air for smaller guys, and before another player in the area can get them on the way down. He just absolutely snatches them. I also like that he’s spent time in the Spurs’ system, and you see it in his play. He passes well, moves without the ball, the little things that really add up.
Lyles has a cheap team option for next season, and Metu has a non-guaranteed deal for even less. I’d love to see an upgrade at PF (Jabari, hello!), but depending on the summer, both guys being on the roster in the fall isn’t a giant problem.
(Murray hello)
Not a starter by any stretch, but I like him as a situational defensive player. Wouldn’t cry or cheer if he moved on.
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