Episode 3 of The Kings Herald Show featuring Jerry Reynolds has arrived! On the podcast this week, Jerry, Will, and I go over the entire Bogdan Bogdanovic situation, review all the signings Monte McNair made in free agency, and preview what to expect in training camp and preseason.
The Kings Herald Show featuring Jerry Reynolds, episode 3:
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More post traumatic Bogi content? Come on, dude is slow, inconsistent, bad on D, old, didn’t want to be here, and would take Hali’s minutes. Not even getting into the crappy Hawks deal.
No NBA team would agree with your take ! Bogi proved he was valued and Hali will need to do the same quickly !
Quickly? So he can duplicate the three crappy seasons Bogi led the team to here? Actually, only one team disagreed with my take. The Bucks wanted him at a discount, and that bidding war by the rest of the league was just a barnburner wasn’t it?
I would have matched, but I understand why the Kings chose not to. That said, pinning the last three seasons on Bogi is a bit hyperbolic. Dude was 8th, 5th and 5th in usage over the past three seasons. There is a list of ownership, front office, coaching and other players that would be held accountable for those three seasons before you ever get to Bogdanovic.
Not pinning it all on him, but more of the same (including him at 18 mil) is maddening. To me, he epitomizes 12th pick teams.
My mistake – when you wrote that Bogi “led the team” to three crappy seasons, I came to the conclusion that you were making him the primary culprit.
Should’ve said “contributed to.” Vivek and Vlade far and away #1 and #2.
Is it me or did we perpetually say that Bogi was worn out from his play with the Serbian national team while he was here? I recall him playing all star level basketball inconsistently and the inconsistency blamed on some sort of fatigue. Maybe it was usage but it always felt like his true potential was never wrangled in, with outside factors to blame.
Yes, because bidding wars for RFAs happen ALL THE TIME in the NBA.
You did know he was a restricted free agent, right?
Come on man, it’s an expression I used within sarcastic context. You know I was making a point about lack of interest around the league. Please, who were the teams lining up to grab Bogi when he became potentially available?
Apparently there was a lot of interest around the league. But I suspect you would disagree with that statement.
I read Bucks trying to get him at a discount. Lakers trying to offload crap on us. Hawks trying to offload crap on us. Then Hawks with a self-inflicted Vlade overpay. What else?
Well…one kind of did
The issue is not whether Bogi had value, he does have value. I wanted to keep him, but one thing I have thought about post-non-match, is that if we kept Bogi as a trade asset, we would have such a crowded wing and backcourt that it would be hard for Bogi to put up big stats that would establish or increase his trade value.
If we matched on Bogi, he would only be playing around 20-22 MPG.
That’s not enough time to compile stats that is going to establish significant trade value. And concurrently Buddy’s stats are suppressed too, the rookies do not develop as well, then you are kind of treading water at best with limited cap flexibility.
I think this was the thought process of the FO and it is kind of hard to vehemently argue against it.
Or an opinion from a lifelong NBA professional.
Love Jerry, but this is about to be the worst organization in the history of the NBA, with regards to playoff misses. New blood, new opinions from top to bottom – it’s time.
SpotON screen name btw.
Bogi was a good player but he always had a nagging injury and never shot 40% from three point land.
By contrast Buddy is a career 43% from 3 , record setting makes his 1st three years in the league, until last season when the coach messed with his head.
His strength as a player is pick and roll, but guess what, we have the best pick and roll player in the NBA in D-Fox.
I am also loving Ramsey and Woodward as prospects, equal or more than Hali, so I wish Bogi the best but as we get distance from the decision I am feeling pretty good about it!!
Ummm… what?
Theoretically, BHE. Always theoretically.
Maybe hypothetically is more accurate. Philosophically? Oh, cosmologically! There’s almost certainly a place in the multiverse where Fox is the best pick and roll player in the NBA.
Theoretically I would be height weight proportional if I was 4 inches taller
Bogi is a better player than Hield. But it will be nice to see if Hield gets used a bit more properly this season
Also just noting that Bogi wasn’t really a player that had to be “used properly”.
I’d say they’re roughly equivalent players. Whether one is “better” than the other depends on context. If you have playmakers and need spacing like BKN, PHI (before their moves), then Buddy is probably better. If you’re lacking in passing, playmaking and general BBIQ, then Bogdan is probably better. Bogdan is more versatile so he’s easier to fit into more situations. But if you need 3pt shooting, then there are few few better options in the league than Buddy.
Bogi is just a more multi-dimensional player than Buddy, and again – a guy you don’t necessarily have to stress out about using him properly (and I think the one idea naturally follows the other).
I agree with Jerry! (As if there’s any other way).
Just trying to wrap my head around the timeline you guys are talking about in regards to how the whole Milwaukee/Atlanta thing went down… So what we do know is this:
11/16–Milwaukee trade announced
11/18–Milwaukee trade officially off
11/20–League investigating Milwaukee trade
11/20–Free agency opens
11/20–ATL, L*kers, and “several other teams” rumored to have interest in Bogi
11/22–ATL submits offer.
So it doesn’t seem likely the Atlanta proposed trade coincided with the Milwaukee deal. Or they would likely be under investigation as well.
They would have had to submit trade offers after 3pm EST on 11/20. So their trade proposal came to McNair sometime between then and 11/22.
Not that it’s a huge deal (unless OKC grabs the 8 seed in 2022), but I just don’t see how the Milwaukee trade is even relevant when discussing whether or not the Kings should have taken the Hawks offer. But maybe I’m missing something.
“But maybe I’m missing something.”
You’re missing what we are all missing: an actual timeline of events that includes when the offer of a pair of 2nd rounders was made. It would also help to know what other irons the Kings may have had in the fire at the time (fielding trade offers for Hield, for example).
My uneducated guess is that the timing was off, and the price was a pair of future 2nd round picks. Unfortunate, but by no means franchise-moving.
The other part we’re missing is what the Kings actually do with their newfound flexibility. As of now, we know the return they could’ve had in two different S&T scenarios, but that’s it. It’s hard to really know if it was a mistake let Bogi walk until (or if) any corresponding moves are made.
But the Hawks couldn’t have made the offer before the 20th, as they would have been under league investigation as well, no?
Milwaukee deal was dead by the 18th.
So yes, perhaps there were other moving parts (such as potential Hield trades). But my comment was about the assertion that the Bucks trade somehow influenced Monte’s decision to decline the Hawks offer (as was discussed in the podcast). I don’t see how that could be the case.
From Amick:
Sources say the Hawks’ offer of the 2022 first rounder also included the Kings taking on Tony Snell and his expiring deal worth $12.1 million. What’s more, sources say there was no clarity given (or asked for) regarding the exact size of the Bogdanovic deal and, thus, made it tougher for the Kings to determine whether they’d want to match if as would happen he ultimately signed an offer sheet with the Hawks. There was a time element attached to the offer, too, with the Hawks asking for an answer within an hour and the Kings, who had asked for some of Atlanta’s younger players to no avail, ultimately declining. There’s strong reason to believe the Hawks would have done the deal without Snell and just for the 2022 first-rounder which, again, will very likely turn into two seconds but sources say that scenario was not discussed.) Sam Amick, The Athletic
So no details given to the Kings on what the offer to Bogi was, 60 minutes to take it or leave it, basically two 2nd round draft picks for $12m (Snell’s contract).
Again, this is just such incomplete information as it pertains to the timeline and the mechanics. But if all we know is that the offer was Snell and the picks and that there was one hour to decide without knowing the offer to Bogi, I say no to that as well.
Why are we calling it two second round picks again? Are we really thinking that Presti can’t build a play-off team in two years with SGA (and Poku and Bazley, whom I would take over most young Kings), ALL THE PICKS, and $70 MM in cap space to work with in a historically loaded FA class?
I’ll stand to be corrected when the time comes. For now, the West is stacked and OKC is rebuilding. Gun to your head, which do you think is more likely?
And in the event that it winds up being a non-lottery pick, $12m seems a little pricy for a non-lottery 1st round pick. And just to speed the conversation along, my opinion is that Snell has zero value as a trade piece, and whatever he would have brought to this year’s team is of zero consequence, in my opinion.
Snell is just a $12MM expiring who could play some non-embarrassing minutes during his layover in Sacramento. His only value is as an expiring at the deadline. Which is value, but not a ton.
And given his current position, I think Presti could absolutely have a clear playoff contender in 21-22.
For the record, $12MM is generally pretty cheap for a non-lottery first round pick. $15-18MM or so has been pretty standard over the years for something in the second half of the 1st round.
I’d be curious to see if the price is different for first round picks that convert to two seconds if not conveyed after 1 year. If we just look at it in the simplest terms, McNair chose not to pay $12 million for a 50/50 chance at getting a late first. I tend to think most front offices have some sort of calculator to determine if that’s fair value.
The other thing I think that’s worth pointing out is that hasn’t been McNair may have more insight into Presti’s thinking than we do. If he knows/knew that Presti is actively trying to leverage next season’s cap space for future assets, then that would be information that could lead you to believe Presti is doing a 2-year rebuild.
All that being said, I think this just comes down to McNair’s approach as it relates to the Kings bottom line. The Kings payroll would’ve been higher this season. That’s a fact. I could see the thought process being that he’d rather bank the extra $12 million, and roll it over into next season unless he can leverage the space for a guaranteed FRP. I have to assume money is still going to be tight in 2021-2023. It’s probably a little easier to have the conversation with ownership about going significantly over the cap next season if they stay right at the cap this season. As of now, Spotrac has the Kings with the 4th lowest payroll for this season (~$500k over the salary cap).
Tony Snell is on the Hawks roster right? Not the Bucks? I’m confused. I’m talking about the podcast, in which they addressed how the non-trade of Bogi to the Hawks could have been related to the timing of the Bucks offer.
And seeing the timeline above, I just don’t see how that could be the case. The Bucks trade was dead before free agency even started, and if they both were on the table at the same time, then Atlanta would be involved with tampering as well.
At any rate, I agree it would be tough to take the ATL trade without knowing the offer to Bogi. Schlenk is a master, and I think he played this perfectly. But I think if I decline that offer, I need to know for sure that I’m at least getting something in return. Or if not, I just match and trade him later.
And again, it’s likely two 2nd round picks so it’s not that big of a deal. But I also am in agreement with BHE. I don’t think it’s a given that OKC isn’t in the playoff picture by next season. Gun to my head, I’d say no. But I’d say it’s about a 30% chance that picks conveys as a first rounder. And that alone would make me take that deal if nothing is pending for Bogi at the time of the offer.
But whatever, it’s done. We’ll see how Monte can use that cap space. I’m still hopeful he can get this team relevant again. (No small task considering who our owner is).
I’d argue that a team like the Kings simply can’t afford to miss out on additional assets. Even if it’s just two 2nds.
That said, we’ll see what they do with the space and flexibility they created.
If there was legit league interest post Bucks, there would’ve been a better offer than Snell and two seconds.
Context matters here. There were only a couple of NBA teams that had the room to make a S&T offer to Bogdanovic. So it’s really not a function of who may or may not have been interested in Bogdanovic – it’s more a function of who was in position to make an offer for his services.
Teams couldn’t trade salary with picks? How were the Lakers supposedly going to do it?
My guess would be by offering Kuzma, and the Kings probably had little-to-no interest in that.
Bottom line, Bogi is not a crappy player. Whether he is a 4/$72m player or not is the question. I would posit that almost every NBA team would like to have Bogi on their roster, with some valuing him higher than others. However, there were very few NBA teams that could on-board him this off-season, and that is the primary reason that he did not have a dozen suitors.
We also have to figure his RFA status into the equation. RFA status is tough for any interested team, as once they make the offer that proposed money is on hold for them until the team that holds the RFA matches or relinquishes. In the meantime the UFA market dries up. So it is the rare RFA that gets put on the front burner of any interested team.
Contract notwithstanding, Atlanta got better and the Kings got worse for 2020-21. Now it’s on the Kings front office to make subsequent moves that will make not matching Bogi look prescient.
Don’t agree with you. I think Hawks had a Vlade free agency. But we’ll see. Feel free to slam me if I’m wrong.
Also didn’t say he was “crappy.” Obviously he has some playmaking and shooting skills. But he is slow, inconsistent, bad on D, old, didn’t want to be here, and would take Hali’s minutes. None of which I think the team should be paying big $ for.
Truer words have never been spoken. I guess the question is when you think these subsequent moves should come. I’m willing to exercise patience and wait until this offseason, but I’m sure that’s too patient for most at this point.
Beno reference!
I finally got a chance to sit down and listen to the podcast…….THANKS FOR CHOOSING MY QUESTION!!
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